Ian Paisley dies aged 88

[Ampersand]

i wouldn't like to be the person at UR in charge of deciding whether or not to have a minute's silence tonight...

If the Dragon's game is arranged for a Sunday, we will have a minute's silence at that match .......... outside the stadium on Onslow.

[Snipe Watson]

If UR decide to have a minute's silence and I think it would be a mistake, I would seriously hope that everyone has the common decency to respect it. To do anything else would be both churlish and crass.

[BR]

Without him we might be more than 20 years further down the path to normal life.

You mean Stormont would have collapsed again already?

[Snipe Watson]

If a minutes silence can be given for Mandela a man who never once renounced the violence he supported then why not for Mr Paisley

We'll need to keep Mandela out of this they were entirely different.

Paisley brought the monster onto the streets and then threw his hands in the air and said "nothing to do with me". He simply denied that the violence had anything to do with him. He always walked the shadowy margin between peaceful protest and violence, while always keeping himself on the right side of it. He was close enough to the 'hard men' but never got his hands dirty.

[Kofi Annan]

If a minutes silence can be given for Mandela a man who never once renounced the violence he supported then why not for Mr Paisley

We'll need to keep Mandela out of this they were entirely different.

Paisley brought the monster onto the streets and then threw his hands in the air and said "nothing to do with me". He simply denied that the violence had anything to do with him. He always walked the shadowy margin between peaceful protest and violence, while always keeping himself on the right side of it. He was close enough to the 'hard men' but never got his hands dirty.

There was me thinking you only dealt in facts

[Snipe Watson]

If a minutes silence can be given for Mandela a man who never once renounced the violence he supported then why not for Mr Paisley

We'll need to keep Mandela out of this they were entirely different.

Paisley brought the monster onto the streets and then threw his hands in the air and said "nothing to do with me". He simply denied that the violence had anything to do with him. He always walked the shadowy margin between peaceful protest and violence, while always keeping himself on the right side of it. He was close enough to the 'hard men' but never got his hands dirty.

There was me thinking you only dealt in facts

You are right, I do.

[Ampersand]

If a minutes silence can be given for Mandela a man who never once renounced the violence he supported then why not for Mr Paisley

We'll need to keep Mandela out of this they were entirely different.

Paisley brought the monster onto the streets and then threw his hands in the air and said "nothing to do with me". He simply denied that the violence had anything to do with him. He always walked the shadowy margin between peaceful protest and violence, while always keeping himself on the right side of it. He was close enough to the 'hard men' but never got his hands dirty.

There was me thinking you only dealt in facts

You are right, I do.

Is that one fact, or two?

[Deckard]

Deckard Mandela was a convicted terrorist and was the leader of an organization that killed more blacks than whites anyway, you like others will believe the rewritten history that suits people who are offended by the truth and are weak minded and bow to the offenders rather than have their own opinions.

With the greatest of respect, Kofi, what do you conceivably know of my knowledge of, and views on, Mandela? Never mind presuming to pigeon-hole me in some imagined category of history-rewriters who can't take the truth??! You are wrong - simply factually incorrect, to describe him as a 'convicted terrorist' - at the Rivonia trial, 'terrorism' was never mentioned in any of the 4 charges. Semantics maybe but it always amuses me how the Mandela 'truthers' seldom get their facts right. In any event, my point stands - if Mandela had dropped dead the day after he went to Robben Island, he would not have been remembered with the esteem with which he was remembered after all he went on to accomplish in the rest of his life.

If a minutes silence can be given for Mandela a man who never once renounced the violence he supported then why not for Mr Paisley

Aside from being an illustration of the quintessential, zero-sum NI mindset - if they get it, I want it, it's not fair - I can think of a couple of reasons. Firstly, aside from a sprinkling of embittered Mandela 'truthers', substantially the entire crowd (and team, notably the Saffas) at Ravenhill that night would have been somewhere between indifferent to in favour of that minute's silence (speaking for myself personally - I could have done without it) - for someone like Paisley, who whatever you say about him, you can't deny that he was divisive, that is not the case. There would be at least a large minority who would find it alienating or offensive. Secondly, to go back to the zero-sum mentality, a minute's silence for Paisley more or less obliges Ulster Rugby to have minute's silences for each and every politician from every NI party who croaks, on pain of leaving itself open to charges of partiality. It's a completely unnecessary cage to step into, and hopefully common sense will prevail.

[CIMANFOREVER]

If a minutes silence can be given for Mandela a man who never once renounced the violence he supported then why not for Mr Paisley

We'll need to keep Mandela out of this they were entirely different.

Paisley brought the monster onto the streets and then threw his hands in the air and said "nothing to do with me". He simply denied that the violence had anything to do with him. He always walked the shadowy margin between peaceful protest and violence, while always keeping himself on the right side of it. He was close enough to the 'hard men' but never got his hands dirty.

Thats as maybe, but Monsters & Butchers on both sides Snipe... Many Pontious Pilates on the Republican side as well.. step forward the MP for Louth, once of this Parish, or the landrover botherer from North Belfast, who regales his groupies with tales of glory of shooting prison officers in the face at his after dinner speeches..
Some people also looked for excuses to start a fight.. maybe a lot of the younger posters should watch the recent programmes on ITV- no warning bombs, La Mon, Bloody Friday, chunks of meat scraped off the street... SF should not be let away with rewriting their bloody history without challenge. None of them are innocent (and I include the UVF and UDA- Monaghan, Dublin, Greysteel etc..), but no-one killed in my name, nor do I vote for their apologists.
Incredible that the DUP and Paisley in particular, is reviled across Ireland, whilst the political wing of one of the worlds most terrorist organisations can field 15% of the popular vote in ROI and 25-305 or so in NI? Guess a hierachy of victims exists in the minds of these people, or the memory of a goldfish.

And I'm no lover of the DUP, believe me, I just believe in perspective.

[Snipe Watson]

If a minutes silence can be given for Mandela a man who never once renounced the violence he supported then why not for Mr Paisley

We'll need to keep Mandela out of this they were entirely different.

Paisley brought the monster onto the streets and then threw his hands in the air and said "nothing to do with me". He simply denied that the violence had anything to do with him. He always walked the shadowy margin between peaceful protest and violence, while always keeping himself on the right side of it. He was close enough to the 'hard men' but never got his hands dirty.

Thats as maybe, but Monsters & Butchers on both sides Snipe... Many Pontious Pilates on the Republican side as well.. step forward the MP for Louth, once of this Parish, or the landrover botherer from North Belfast, who regales his groupies with tales of glory of shooting prison officers in the face at his after dinner speeches..
Some people also looked for excuses to start a fight.. maybe a lot of the younger posters should watch the recent programmes on ITV- no warning bombs, La Mon, Bloody Friday, chunks of meat scraped off the street... SF should not be let away with rewriting their bloody history without challenge. None of them are innocent (and I include the UVF and UDA- Monaghan, Dublin, Greysteel etc..), but no-one killed in my name, nor do I vote for their apologists.
Incredible that the DUP and Paisley in particular, is reviled across Ireland, whilst the political wing of one of the worlds most terrorist organisations can field 15% of the popular vote in ROI and 25-305 or so in NI? Guess a hierachy of victims exists in the minds of these people, or the memory of a goldfish.

And I'm no lover of the DUP, believe me, I just believe in perspective.

Therein lies the nub of the problem CIMan. Everyone has to point the finger and say; but, but, but.....the other side.
The only major player who died today is the one we are discussing. I deliberately avoided any mention of anyone else.

[big mervyn]

I would suspect that most of us here who are less than effusive about Paisley's net contribution to the last half century are well aware of that perspective CIMAN, and I would equally suspect that precious few would be banging the drum for t'other side.

I also think it's fair to include him in those apologists that you mentioned or, in many cases over the years, an encourager.

[Surrey Red Hand]

Deckard Mandela was a convicted terrorist and was the leader of an organization that killed more blacks than whites anyway, you like others will believe the rewritten history that suits people who are offended by the truth and are weak minded and bow to the offenders rather than have their own opinions. I don't recall Paisley being the leader of a terrorist organization nor convicted for for such. If a minutes silence can be given for Mandela a man who never once renounced the violence he supported then why not for Mr Paisley

I agree with what you have said Kofi ... never been a supporter of the Big Man .... just hope he gets a dignified funeral

[Shan]

Like all of us he was an imperfect human. Unlike most of us he had authority as a public figure. Much of what he engaged in over the years caused damage to his society and pain for many. He is certainly not alone in that regard in terms of the political family.

One Parliament debate he had I rather liked(November 14th 1996) showed he could try to argue for his constituents, even ones who were part of a sect he claimed to despise. It is a bit strange he had remained silent thoughout the discussion on decommisioning just before it. Not sure what that means, if it means anything. I'll give him the benefit of any doubt on that as I would like to believe he actually cared about the plight of the man he speaks of.

Mr. Moss: The Government's purpose is to provide a safer, more reliable and more comfortable ferry service. We are spending, with our European neighbours, around £7.25 million to improve the harbours. We have paid in subsidy around £300,000 to the operators since 1991 and we hope that when the new ferry service is brought in, six new full-time jobs will be created, all of which will go to the islanders. That will bring in £80,000 of permanent employment to Rathlin island.

Rev. Ian Paisley: I am sure that the Minister is aware that Rathlin island is the only large island off Northern Ireland that is inhabited. In 1900, it had more than 1,000 inhabitants and that figure has now been reduced to 200. I am sure that he is also aware that never, in all the time up until 1991, did the Government do anything to facilitate the Rathlin islanders getting to Ballycastle and back. They did that on their own initiative. Does the Minister agree that Mr. Cecil should be congratulated on how hard he tried, and managed, to keep a passageway open from the island to Ballycastle? He sacrificed much--lives have been lost on that passage and we should keep that in mind--and he did so willingly and gladly. Mr. Cecil will lose his employment and there will not be jobs for everybody who was employed. Does not the Minister feel that he has an obligation, having taken away--through a large subsidy--that man's right to run that passageway, to do the decent and morally right thing and give him adequate compensation?

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 02_spnew17

[BaggyTrousers]

Deckard Mandela was a convicted terrorist and was the leader of an organization that killed more blacks than whites anyway, you like others will believe the rewritten history that suits people who are offended by the truth and are weak minded and bow to the offenders rather than have their own opinions. I don't recall Paisley being the leader of a terrorist organization nor convicted for for such. If a minutes silence can be given for Mandela a man who never once renounced the violence he supported then why not for Mr Paisley

Doubtless the apartheid regime gave Mandela a fair trial, surely nobody could doubt that o

[Dublin4]

Kofi,
Much as I don't wish to intrude on the sense of loss and grief over the passing away of the Big Man, your points about Mandela are simply preposterous. You describe him as a convicted terrorist. Perhaps he was in a literal sense in the warped mind of the apartheid regime, but his contribution to peaceful change and reconciliation over decades was remarkable, unprecedented and an example to everyone.

Much as I admire what the Rev Ian did in recent years, I am old enough to have childhood memories of every moderate Unionist leader being undermined and knocked down by the good Reverend to the point where he achieved his objective and was finally top of the pile.
That took him about 40 years. (It is ironic that the Shinners mirrored the same path. There never was any justification for the armed struggle either)

I will remember the benign Paisley and his chuckles but I can't forget the awful stuff you had to live through and which even at a remove of 100 miles I also had to endure for much of my life.