Training squad

[Lurgan Lad]

And three players from Connaught too, just useless. Very unimaginative squad, and this is the extended squad, so really disappointed. He is sending a message to Connaught players and possibly even Ulster players that if they want to regularly feature with Ireland they need to be head and shoulders above the competition or based with Leinster or Munster.

[Neil F]

I admit that I complained about the second-rows but I honestly cannot understand the comments that followed from Jackie, Aaron and Lurgan Lad - it is the 'same old turd' from Kidney because there are very few other players to select outside of this squad. I think there are maybe four contenders that aren't mentioned in this listing; Carr, Cave, Downey and Tuohy. For all four, there are good reasons for omission, and for the first two, I think these reasons are stronger than reasons that could be offered for their inclusion. I can't help but wonder what benefit the player or squad would have by the inclusion of more players, so I think it needs to be asked who would be excluded to allow Carr or Cave in?

43 may seem like a random number but if you note the number of specialist fullbacks and scrum-halves, both of which were problematic positions during the 6 Nations, it makes a lot more sense. Hayes and Horan will probably not go to the world cup but they are useful guys to have around the squad that will go to the world cup for contact training and so on. Ditto Duffy who can play just about anywhere in the backline but is unlikely to head down under.

Inside centre is a weak position for Ireland; D'Arcy didn't have a good season or 6 Nations but he seemed to recover some form and is probably the best option and whilst Wallace had a poor end to the season, his ability to cover 10 in an emergency will probably see him make the squad. Downey could fit and may be unfortunate to miss out at this stage but between the question marks that still hang over his ability and who else you would exclude from this squad to allow him in, it may be sensible. The only one that I think is a poor decision is Tuohy; Tuohy is better than Donnacha Ryan, he covers the backrow as Ryan does and would, I think, offer the squad more. At the same time, Tuohy went into meltdown in Milton Keynes and was injured at the end of the season; can anyone comment on his fitness?

Who else would those lamenting this squad prefer to see in it, and whom would they have those players replace?

[BaggyTrousers]

Some very predictable howls of outrage, typed with the red hand of course. Some reasoned comment on exclusions but much more of the usual talk of "unimaginative selection" - that is such a cop out from those who seem to want to make an intelligent comment but just can't quite think of something intelligent to say.

Disagreeing with Kidney is a national pass-time not confined to Ulster but if you are going to do so why not state your objections and alternatives rather than that brain-dead "unimaginative selection" nonsense. Unlike many countries he is selecting approximately 50% of Ireland's playing pros, quite where people expect rabbits to be pulled from hats is beyond me.

As for "Same old turd from Kidney" well that my friends is simply risible.

Like Bangor Boy I am not unhappy for our team not to see more in the mix but obviously disappointed for individuals who harboured hopes of making the selection.

Of other teams players who are selected the most interesting is Conor Murray. Some say he is there for the experience and will not travel. Unless you have a hotline to Kidney, don't count on that. Murray has been very impressive and DK is never shy about throwing in a player he believes in. It is a position we need a guy to make his own because the current crop are not international standard. I expect Murray to get a chance to stake a claim in the August games.

[browner]

Headmaster's had enough today
All the kids have gone away
Gone to fight with next door's school
Every term, that is the rule

Sits alone and bends his cane
Same old backsides again
All the small ones tell tall tales
Walking home and squashing snails

Oh, what fun we had
But did it really turn out bad
All I learnt at school
Was how to bend not break the rules

Oh, what fun we had
But at the time it seemed so bad
Trying different ways
To make a difference to the days

[Snipe Watson]

Some very predictable howls of outrage, typed with the red hand of course. Some reasoned comment on exclusions but much more of the usual talk of "unimaginative selection" - that is such a cop out from those who seem to want to make an intelligent comment but just can't quite think of something intelligent to say.

Disagreeing with Kidney is a national pass-time not confined to Ulster but if you are going to do so why not state your objections and alternatives rather than that brain-dead "unimaginative selection" nonsense. Unlike many countries he is selecting approximately 50% of Ireland's playing pros, quite where people expect rabbits to be pulled from hats is beyond me.

As for "Same old turd from Kidney" well that my friends is simply risible.

Like Bangor Boy I am not unhappy for our team not to see more in the mix but obviously disappointed for individuals who harboured hopes of making the selection.

Of other teams players who are selected the most interesting is Conor Murray. Some say he is there for the experience and will not travel. Unless you have a hotline to Kidney, don't count on that. Murray has been very impressive and DK is never shy about throwing in a player he believes in. It is a position we need a guy to make his own because the current crop are not international standard. I expect Murray to get a chance to stake a claim in the August games.

Good first shot there Baggy (if it is your first )

[Shan]

I admit that I complained about the second-rows but I honestly cannot understand the comments that followed from Jackie, Aaron and Lurgan Lad - it is the 'same old turd' from Kidney because there are very few other players to select outside of this squad. I think there are maybe four contenders that aren't mentioned in this listing; Carr, Cave, Downey and Tuohy. For all four, there are good reasons for omission, and for the first two, I think these reasons are stronger than reasons that could be offered for their inclusion. I can't help but wonder what benefit the player or squad would have by the inclusion of more players, so I think it needs to be asked who would be excluded to allow Carr or Cave in?

43 may seem like a random number but if you note the number of specialist fullbacks and scrum-halves, both of which were problematic positions during the 6 Nations, it makes a lot more sense. Hayes and Horan will probably not go to the world cup but they are useful guys to have around the squad that will go to the world cup for contact training and so on. Ditto Duffy who can play just about anywhere in the backline but is unlikely to head down under.

Inside centre is a weak position for Ireland; D'Arcy didn't have a good season or 6 Nations but he seemed to recover some form and is probably the best option and whilst Wallace had a poor end to the season, his ability to cover 10 in an emergency will probably see him make the squad. Downey could fit and may be unfortunate to miss out at this stage but between the question marks that still hang over his ability and who else you would exclude from this squad to allow him in, it may be sensible. The only one that I think is a poor decision is Tuohy; Tuohy is better than Donnacha Ryan, he covers the backrow as Ryan does and would, I think, offer the squad more. At the same time, Tuohy went into meltdown in Milton Keynes and was injured at the end of the season; can anyone comment on his fitness?

Who else would those lamenting this squad prefer to see in it, and whom would they have those players replace?

Go raibh mile maith agat Neil. Tá tu an finscéal mór na hÉireann.

Tá me ag lorg obair ar TG4.

[Neil F]

Don't have a bloody clue what you're on about, Shan

[Shan]

Oops sorry Neil. It appears I may have had a drink or two last night and ended up being an ar%e.

Anyway the gist is I enjoyed yet another sensible post from your good self.

[rumncoke]

The training squad is 43 95% are predictable which of course makes it appear unimaginative.

I disagree with Neil F regarding Cave I can see logic in the exclusion of Carr in that the truth is Ireland have better wingers available included in the squad who may not actual play.

McFadden has played a number of times at International level allbeit out of position and has never insprired me to believe he has the ability to raise his game to the required level also the fact that he is not a natural 1st choice at leinster in any position but a squad back fill in in a number of positions doesn't persuade me he is worthy of automatic inclusion.

Wallace on the basis of his performances for Ulster this season can count himself lucky.

Cullen and M o'Driscoll play well at ML level neither really have ever been convincing Internationals M o'D offers much more round the park than Cullen but both are basically lineout specialists one a ball winner the other a spoiler to be honest I don't consider that specialist lineout forwards make great Internationals.

But where I agree the weakness in the squad exists is the lack of cover at 12 and 13 as Neil F stated D'Arcy didn't have the greatest of 6Ns but he and BoD do have a excellent understanding of their roles as a defensive mid field partnership but as an attacking inside centre he was too predictable his worst performance against Italy I believe was down to an inadequate an slow service provided by ToL at the base. My concern with BoD is really one of fitness and his ability to play a series of games in quick succession without injury or stay 100% fit

[Neil F]

Rum; Cave missed nearly the whole of the season. We are dealing with a player who managed 300ish minutes on the park since Christmas and who missed the whole of the Heineken Cup campaign. Cave didn't look terribly fit at the end of last season; he seemed to be carrying a little extra weight for a start and he really did seem to struggle to hit top pace. Cave did nothing at all last season to merit a call up to this squad - if he'd made it, it would have been a pick on a reputation that the player has yet to fully build. McFadden, while shifted around the Leinster backline, played a lot of rugby for Leinster, was involved in the Heineken Cup and did get international exposure. I don't think you can make the assertions you have about McFadden and then suggest Cave should be involved. Cave has yet to prove that he can step up to international level, either.

Ireland are weak in the centre at the moment but I don't think Cave, with no international experience, and coming off the back of the season he's had would improve that. If you want to add another player in the centre, it has to be Downey; I'd postulate that McFadden's apparent versatility is considered more valuable at this stage.

Oops sorry Neil. It appears I may have had a drink or two last night and ended up being an ar%e.

Anyway the gist is I enjoyed yet another sensible post from your good self.

Not at all - your initial post still made more sense than some of the postings on here!

[rumncoke]

lack of game time for Cave is a given and could be the reason for lack of fitness but fitness can be acquired quite quickly and to a certain extent you might say he looked fitter than O Driscoll at the end of the season who appeared to carrying injury. Cave's pluses for me are the fact that defensively is sound can time a pass and make space for his wingers.

Ulster suffered this year, by Caves absence, from crabbing across the pitch and the lack of space for the wingers last year Danelli amassed trys this year he hardly featured.

I sense that the backline selection is not so much the work of Kidney but O Driscoll who surrounds himself with mates.
Mcfadden did get International exposure but he was playing on a different wavelenght to rest of the team Fitzgerald also got international exposure which exposed Fitzgerald a genius until it hits the fan and then he panics.
while the same could be concluded from the forward selection with O Connell/and Wallace as the string pullers

[Neil F]

Rumncoke, you must forgive me; I fear I've had too many Tuesday G&T's to coherently respond but not enough to want to go to bed, if you catch my meaning?

There has been a myth about O'Driscoll that I find disturbing; apart from 2009, O'Driscoll hasn't been good enough to have the ego and clout that many have propsed he has in the Ireland set up for a few years. The suggestion that he has any sway over Ireland selection is disturbing, to say the least - right now he doesn't personally bring enough to the table to make a side with BOD better that a side without BOD because he's in a huff because BOD wants inferior players that are his mates in his provincial team. What gets me most is that it doesn't at all fit with his character - we are dealing with a man whose primary focus, certainly since he's been on the good side of 25, is winning; before 25 he wanted to party, by the way, not help out his mates. Plus, you know, Paddy is his mate from UCD too. It doesn't add up. Unless O'Driscoll wanted Wallace and D'Arcy in the same side and that's why Paddy was covering fullback during the 6 Nations...

Ulster have crabbed; you are right about that but this has been Spence's inexperience. Cave doesn't bring anything that an experienced outside centre won't bring. Going into the last World Cup, how many people would have had Barry Murphy in the Ireland set up? I'm aware that Murphy played in Argentina, just to be clear but as an experienced outside centre, he didn't crab. Spence has crabbed; outside centres do not. This shouldn't be enough to merit Cave's inclusion. Even that, I don't think your Danielli argument works; Trimble has played with the same crabbing outside centre that Danielli has. Despite this, he's turned himself into a serious international contender again, which simply wasn't the case two or three seasons ago. It's unfair to attribute Danielli's lack of form to the lack of Darren Cave. Trimble has been blistering at times this season, outside of Spence. Danielli has suffered from age and injuries that he didn't have last season.

Ftizgerald at 15 was a bad call but what made it bad was Kidney's persistence with Fitzgerald at 15, not the initial experiment. Duffy was the form 15 in Ireland. There weren't many calls for Duffy to start the 6 Nations at 15. There was a straight call between McFadden and an unfit Trimble for the wing berth throughout the tournament; Trimble showed for Ulster that his fitness wasn't there. Who else would you have had play at the start of the 6 Nations? Carr? Gilroy? Nacewa... Trimble is good but he's not Bowe good; a partially fit Bowe is better than McFadden. A partially fit Trimble probably isn't.

Why I am disturbed by these posts is that there are perfectly logical reasons for many of the decisions that people on this forum find odd because they go against Ulster players. With the exception of Ferris, Ulster hasn't produced a player exceptional enough, for many years, to merit inclusion based on being an awesome player and hasn't produced consistent enough players to build the reputations that have aided the likes of D'Arcy and David Wallace. More to the point; we haven't produced player who have performed well enough, consistently, at international level to have individually poor performances glossed over. Rory loses it with the throw too often; Court loses concentration in the scrum too often; Tuohy loses concentration around the park too often...

[Ardglass2]

A superb post by Neil F and a pretty good one by RHH.

Agree with just about everythin said

[Rooster]

Cave wouldn't get on the Leinster team ergo he doesn't make the RWC, though he did get measured up for a suit so could yet bolt should there be injuries.

If that is correct then surely a prime reason to have him in this training squad

[lovesthehardground]

Rumncoke, you must forgive me; I fear I've had too many Tuesday G&T's to coherently respond but not enough to want to go to bed, if you catch my meaning?

There has been a myth about O'Driscoll that I find disturbing; apart from 2009, O'Driscoll hasn't been good enough to have the ego and clout that many have propsed he has in the Ireland set up for a few years. The suggestion that he has any sway over Ireland selection is disturbing, to say the least - right now he doesn't personally bring enough to the table to make a side with BOD better that a side without BOD because he's in a huff because BOD wants inferior players that are his mates in his provincial team. What gets me most is that it doesn't at all fit with his character - we are dealing with a man whose primary focus, certainly since he's been on the good side of 25, is winning; before 25 he wanted to party, by the way, not help out his mates. Plus, you know, Paddy is his mate from UCD too. It doesn't add up. Unless O'Driscoll wanted Wallace and D'Arcy in the same side and that's why Paddy was covering fullback during the 6 Nations...

Ulster have crabbed; you are right about that but this has been Spence's inexperience. Cave doesn't bring anything that an experienced outside centre won't bring. Going into the last World Cup, how many people would have had Barry Murphy in the Ireland set up? I'm aware that Murphy played in Argentina, just to be clear but as an experienced outside centre, he didn't crab. Spence has crabbed; outside centres do not. This shouldn't be enough to merit Cave's inclusion. Even that, I don't think your Danielli argument works; Trimble has played with the same crabbing outside centre that Danielli has. Despite this, he's turned himself into a serious international contender again, which simply wasn't the case two or three seasons ago. It's unfair to attribute Danielli's lack of form to the lack of Darren Cave. Trimble has been blistering at times this season, outside of Spence. Danielli has suffered from age and injuries that he didn't have last season.

Ftizgerald at 15 was a bad call but what made it bad was Kidney's persistence with Fitzgerald at 15, not the initial experiment. Duffy was the form 15 in Ireland. There weren't many calls for Duffy to start the 6 Nations at 15. There was a straight call between McFadden and an unfit Trimble for the wing berth throughout the tournament; Trimble showed for Ulster that his fitness wasn't there. Who else would you have had play at the start of the 6 Nations? Carr? Gilroy? Nacewa... Trimble is good but he's not Bowe good; a partially fit Bowe is better than McFadden. A partially fit Trimble probably isn't.

Why I am disturbed by these posts is that there are perfectly logical reasons for many of the decisions that people on this forum find odd because they go against Ulster players. With the exception of Ferris, Ulster hasn't produced a player exceptional enough, for many years, to merit inclusion based on being an awesome player and hasn't produced consistent enough players to build the reputations that have aided the likes of D'Arcy and David Wallace. More to the point; we haven't produced player who have performed well enough, consistently, at international level to have individually poor performances glossed over. Rory loses it with the throw too often; Court loses concentration in the scrum too often; Tuohy loses concentration around the park too often...

Neil F, hope the G&Ts have worn off by now. Have to question a couple of things you posted. Firstly BOD still continues to rule the roost down with the IRFU. Your comments that he doesn't hold sway over selection are misplaced. He's the team captain and identified leader. Of course he holds sway at selection. Unfortunately I believe he has too much say over who plays inside him!!
Secondly you state that Ulster have not produced an exceptional player for many years apart from Ferris. That may well be true but who have Leinster and Munster produced in the same category since Ferris or in recent years? I don't think you can use this arguement as a reason why more Ulster players have not been selected. If your arguement holds true then why is McFadden in the squad? Jones and Murray?

No to my mind the squad is as expected. The criticism of DK isn't about this selection. The criticism is that he has not groomed enough young players to come through and challenge the old hands who are over the hill and are going to this RWC as their swansong. Kidneys lack of experimentation over the last 2 years is where he has been at fault. This squad is "predictable". But he gave himself no choices by his previous conservative selections during the last couple of AI & summer series.