All Blacks Vs Ireland Take III

[ParcoPorta]

by ParcoPorta » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:02 pm

I believe many here in Ireland over value the achievements made by our provinces, and fail to see the lack of depth of international class players we have when compared with NZ, SA, Aus, Eng and France. We also appear to have stood still whilst the game moves on

Ermmmm?

Fuzzylogic, You seem to be suggesting that Eng don't have depth. Well that's just absurd! We are at crisis point with just a few missing.

[Dublin4]

more bad news for Ireland:

O'Brien hip problems requiring surgery




Rugby: Irish backrow Sean O'Brien is facing up to a four-month injury lay-off and is set to miss the November Internationals.


The flnker, who was one of Ireland’s performing players in the 3-0 series loss to New Zealand recently, has been carrying a hip problem which has curtailed his training this season.

Ireland manager Mick Kearney confirmed O'Brien has been scheduled for corrective surgery this week. They are confident he will make a full recovery, but will also miss the first part of Leinster’s season.

"Sean is having some keyhole surgery on his hip to repair some cartilage damage within the next week or so, and the recovery period for this type of operation is 13 to 15 weeks," said Kearney. "It means it could be up to four months. Obviously it's going to make him doubtful for November.

"Like any operation there is some risk attached to it but the medics feel he will make a full recovery and that he will certainly be back towards the end of October and he should be back playing Heineken Cup rounds three and four in December."

Kearney added that O'Brien's Leinster team-mates David Kearney had a similar procedure carried out as did Rhys Ruddock both of whom are also facing a lay-offs.

"Dave has had a similar kind of procedure done and Rhys I think is having a similar type of procedure. It seems to be a more common type of injury than heretofore. I'm not sure the reason why. People are a bit mystified by it. Sean will make a full recovery - certainly that's the medical opinion."

[fuzzylogic]

by ParcoPorta » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:52 pm

fuzzylogic wrote:

by ParcoPorta » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:02 pm

I believe many here in Ireland over value the achievements made by our provinces, and fail to see the lack of depth of international class players we have when compared with NZ, SA, Aus, Eng and France. We also appear to have stood still whilst the game moves on

Ermmmm?

Fuzzylogic, You seem to be suggesting that Eng don't have depth. Well that's just absurd! We are at crisis point with just a few missing.

Tey have a depth of players alright, but they sure as hell dont have a depth of international class players!

[shamalicious]

I'd imagine SOB was probably having this problem before going to NZ? If that's the case I worry about the IRFU's attitude to player welfare. Would it not have been better for him to get the treatment a month ago, meaning he'd be available sooner for Leinster (and Ireland in the AIs)? But of course they were relying on getting a result for the world rankings, look how that turned out.

[rumncoke]

When did D Kearney have his done if just after the season past then it would account for his absence from the tour and the selection of Zebo.

I wonder if this due to players doing serious weights in training.

[Wee Woman]

BOD will play until he retires. As will ROG (at least bench) and POC. Any coach that will drop BOD is a good coach, but will come under scrutiny from the blazers.

This is what frustrates me. I'd love to see someone brave enough to come in and take the decision to 'retire' players instead of these guys hanging on and on and on. I personally can't see what the likes of BOD can get out of continuing on as an International and that's why I have a lot of respect for the likes of Dennis Hickie who went out at the top of his game.

Granted these guys may still be the best we have in their respective positions but until someone takes the decision to effectively retire these guys and bring on younger talent, Ireland are going nowhere. At the very least these guys should be told that they are going to have to move aside for the younger lads. Keep them involved absolutely but more in a mentoring role (with the odd impact sub appearance going forward). Ireland are going to have to take the hit at some point (or have they already??).

Kidney is just the IRFU's 'yes man' and that suits them right down to the ground IMO.

[Setanta]

How's about 250K per annum? They earn it if you cmpare that to soccer, actors, politicians, Bank chiefs etc., usw., Seriously its a short enough career. However I take your point and the secret is in the balance; it will cost more to have the incumbent and the project on the salary account but that's the same for every club in every sport. Cut some of those management salaries and it should be no problem. Oh, maybe that is the problem.

[rumncoke]

Fuzzy

England don't lack depth they lack--- players with talent -- the could pick any one of three players for any position and they would perform to a similiar standard

Ireland with four provinces would like to be able to but can't and the current problem is that virtually all the provinces are weak in similiar area of the pitch -- front row- centre and open side wing forward

NB our (Irelands) problem at centre is two fold we have had one of the best mid field combinations in NH rugby since 2000 and most of the players coming into contention are not quite mature enough and to be honest I pity them because everybody will be comparing them to BoD and D'Arcy. BoD is basically a once in a life time player.

[bazzaj]

BOD certainly is Rum and I cant believe he is being written off by people.
I actually did this after his shoulder injury sustained on the 2005 lions tour.
His form worsened when he recovered and I remember watching Conrad Smith leaving him for dead in a game and I thought thats that for Drico.
He subsequently reinvented his game and came back to play arguably even better than before thus proving the likes of me wrong.
Lesson learnt and I will not do that again.

[OneMore]

I agree baz.

Also think it's a perverse idea to "retire" someone from the international scene. Or why do we expect BOD to turn his back on his country? We should let the current coach choose the squad and build for the future as they see fit.

Maybe Kidney will turn around and say "Hey, I've had enough of him, BOD won't play for me again.". Then say DK gets ousted after the AIs, and Joe Schmidt gets the job, and he says, "BOD is an important part of my plans, he's in the squad." - this is how it should be for me, he gets picked, or he does not, with the international head coach being trusted to do that. The idea of international retirement is in effect the withdrawal of your service to your country. Don't see why we'd welcome that.

[Wee Woman]

I think the biggest issue that Ireland need to face in the next year or so is the post BOD era. At some point a coach is going to have to drop BOD and that will take some doing. In fact it is more likely that he will know himself and jump.

I missed Snipe's post at the first time of asking but that's kind of where I'm coming from. I'm not necessarily saying that it has to be BOD that is 'retired' right now but didn't Stuart Lancaster effectively do just that with some of the England old guard from 2003?

I totally agree that there is no-one currently of BOD standard coming through the ranks but Ireland will need to rebuild at some point - the question is when and how??

This is not just restricted to BOD btw, what are folks thoughts on O'Gara, O'Connell, O'Callaghan & dare I say Wallace for example? Do these guys really think there is another grand slam in them? Are any of them thinking of the future of Irish Rugby??

No doubt some radical thinking is required at some point soon, I'm interested to see how that pans out.

[Bart S]

I think the biggest issue that Ireland need to face in the next year or so is the post BOD era. At some point a coach is going to have to drop BOD and that will take some doing. In fact it is more likely that he will know himself and jump.

I missed Snipe's post at the first time of asking but that's kind of where I'm coming from. I'm not necessarily saying that it has to be BOD that is 'retired' right now but didn't Stuart Lancaster effectively do just that with some of the England old guard from 2003?

I totally agree that there is no-one currently of BOD standard coming through the ranks but Ireland will need to rebuild at some point - the question is when and how??

This is not just restricted to BOD btw, what are folks thoughts on O'Gara, O'Connell, O'Callaghan & dare I say Wallace for example? Do these guys really think there is another grand slam in them? Are any of them thinking of the future of Irish Rugby??

No doubt some radical thinking is required at some point soon, I'm interested to see how that pans out.

A few issues for me here :-

BOD had a poor tour but it is probably still a bit too early to write him off at international level. He looked good on his come back for Leinster and had a decent 2nd test. Granted that's not enough but as others have said, he's ben written off before and come back. Yes there's an age element but also hunger and motivation. I wouldn't rule BOD out yet nor entirely discount the possibiltiy of him having a good season ahead.

I don't blame the likes of ROG and BOD for not retiring fom international rugby. They're passionate about playing for their country and it's a limited career. From ane earnings potential as wwell, being involved with Ireland will be more luctrative.If a coach wants to "retire" them that's his perrogative, but no-one should feel they have to. Some have chosen to do so but that's more to prolong their careers at club/provincial level which is fine - each has to make his choice.

I don't have a problem with the coach going for the younger guy where it's arguably close as to who is better in the first place and in some of Stuart Lancaster's decisions, that's what he has done. As someone said earlier, England have a lot of depth in terms of guys who are broadly the same standard, whereas we don't in positions like 10 and 12 right now. It's why from an ireland perspective I can at least see some logic for persisting with Murray ahead of Reddan or Boss, both of whom are older and haven't shown themselves to be much better at international level. Now I'd still have picked reddan to start the 2nd test because Murray was poor but it is an example of a younger player being picked ahead of someone who is only slightly better if at all.

If you look at the Heiny, then who were the much younger 10's and 12's unlucky not to be picked ahead of ROG and Darcy at international level? I can't see them. Maybe Downey should have got a chance. I don't know as haven't seen enough of him. Now hopefully the likes of PJ and JJ Hanrahan at Ulster and Munster can shake things up this coming season and start showing us some real alternatives to ROG and the likes of Luke Marshall will get chances ahead of Paddy Wallace to show his talent, but right now, it's not a given that any of these guys are solid provincial standard, let laone international standard.

Keatley, NOC, I Humps could all have had more internatonal opportunities but does anyone really think Ireland would have been better for it?

[ColinM]

I'd imagine SOB was probably having this problem before going to NZ? If that's the case I worry about the IRFU's attitude to player welfare. Would it not have been better for him to get the treatment a month ago, meaning he'd be available sooner for Leinster (and Ireland in the AIs)? But of course they were relying on getting a result for the world rankings, look how that turned out.

So they opted to have SOB available in the summer and Ferris in the autumn. Sounds fair enough in a way. If the IRFU were playing hardball they would have sent SOB for surgery post RWC then he would have maybe made some 6Ns. Or sent him for surgery in Feb so he missed the second half of the.season and was fresh for NZ.

We know the IRFU hold all players for the national team and this is their resource planning.

Im just glad Ferris was the one granted leave to rest.





Same thing explains Zebo ahead of Kearney (but not Gilroy)

[Snipe Watson]

I doubt that Colin. They just play them until the can't play any more.

[rumncoke]

My point was that BoD D'Arcy and Paddy Wallace have all seen better days all are losing pace which will never be recovered and the rate of loss will only accelerate over the coming seasons both and they tend to get injured more easily . Secondly those players who may take over from them are not yet mature enough.

There is also the fact that Jokeless ( only kidding ) has little faith in either McFadden or Cave and has this strange notion that if you have pace you can play anywhere in the backs -- Now it maybe true at Schools level because the opposition are seldom good enoung to exploit mistakes but if a player makes a mistake at International level the team pays.

teams like South Africa the All Blacks France and Wales look for weaknesses and know how to use them to their advantage .

Players losing pace can be the biggest weakness in an International team because they try to play as if they still have pace.