Ulster Fans Racial Abuse

[aarons]

Indeed the great Northern ireland non sectarian supporters who shout No Surrender in the middle of God Save the Queen. Great guys

There is nothing sectarian in the singing of No Surrender in GSTQ, political yes but sectarian no.

I wouldn't sing No Surrender myself and find it a bit distasteful but then don't 70,000 English football fans sing it at their games too, it isn't sectarian.

i tried to let this go, but couldn't help myself..

harold, do you think you could share your new-fangled definition of sectarianism with us?

[iluvni]

The problem is the mud will stick, to all of us as others have said. What gets me is why supporters want to chant anything that could possibly be misconstrued. What does ‘dodgy dodgy kicker’ mean? It’s a meaningless piece of nothing which in the heat of the moment can be misheard. The reality is that black players playing at Ravenhill will be aware of the allegations made and hypersensitive as a result. A player concentrating on the game half hears something and he automatically computes it into the racial abuse he has been hearing about. All the more reason why we should be careful what we shout. We can declare ourselves to be innocent all day, but the offended player will believe what he thought he heard. Would this player have believed he was abused and made the allegation if the Madden, Armitage and Brennan incidents had never happened? Possibly, but probably not. Once tarnished, our reputation will be gone and it will take years to restore.
If someone is guilty of such a racist attack he or she must be hung out to dry for the sake of us all and as an example to others who may wish to follow suite or think it hilarious to shout something ‘sounding like’ a term of racist abuse.
It is up to us to be the guardians of our reputation.

You reckon those who shouted "dodgy, dodgy kicker" should have had a discussion before they shouted it to establish whether it could possibly be msconstrued as some kind of racist remark?
Wise up.

No racist or sectarian chanting has taken place at Ravenhill. Why should Ulster fans beat themselves up over it or the possibility of it.
It doesnt happen.

[aarons]

the thing is.. the truth no longer matters because the lie is halfway around the world.

the UB needs to be seem to stamp something out, even if it doesn't exist, and then we can all get on with our lives

[AndyB]

Anybody who thinks that nothing racist has ever been said at Ravenhill is being extremely naive. I have heard comments made, albeit not loud enough to be heard on the pitch but loud enough to be heard 3 or 4 metres away in the stand about black players, including Martin Madden and Delon Armitage. These involved comparisons to monkeys and the word 'black' put it in front of ordinary terms of abuse. The comments about Armitage were made by an older man possibly in his sixties sitting just along from me. The trouble we have is that we live in the least racially aware part of the UK. We are now facing issues that most of England dealt with with 15 or 20 years ago. People make inappropriate comments for all sorts of reasons, ignorance, prejudice or kids thinking it makes them look big. Let's not kid ourselves that we're all angels.
Having said all that NCG should make clear exactly what was alleged to have been said and where it was meant to have been said from.

[GerryO']

No Rem99, I am absolutely not accusing you or anyone else of using the dodgy kicker chant in a smart-arsed way to sound like a racist term. I do think that it means nothing, so why chant it, but that’s a different issue. What I am suggesting is that in my long experience of dealing with ‘young fellas’ who think they are wags, I do know that this is the kind of thing which can happen.

I don’t think the Dragons owe us an apology in the way that Brian Smyth from London Irish does, as they have used the correct channels in the belief that their player has been wronged.

My main point of my post is the last line. We must collectively guard our reputation by being ultra careful, because the press will take great pleasure in trashing it. Whether we are right or wrong is irrelevant to the rest of the world. The truth will be what people choose to believe and people foolishly believe everything they read in the papers.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

...... What gets me is why supporters want to chant anything that could possibly be misconstrued. What does ‘dodgy dodgy kicker’ mean? It’s a meaningless piece of nothing which in the heat of the moment can be misheard.

To take that to its logical conclusion we should think of everything we might shout during a match, in advance. Then try shouting it, in case it sounds different to they way we think it will, just to see if could be misconstrued. Then we should send it around a selection of others to see if they can spot any misinterpretations we haven't thought of or maybe different accents.

To be honest, whatever you think of "Dodgy, dodgy kicker", would you have thought in advance that it could be taken for something else. If I had thought of it, I'd be afraid to open my mouth in future for fear of ANYTHING being mis-heard. (Some may think that's a good thing)

[ElPedro]

What upsets me most is the handling of this recent run of events by UR.

Prior to anything being allegedly shouted on Friday night we were treated to an advance chastisement in the form of a pre-kick off politically correcty lecture by the anachronism that is the "entertainment".

This was also the case at the Ireland A game the previous Friday.

personally I was offended before the team took the pitch.

Like thousands of others I have stood on the terrace for years without any problem. Yes it's lively, yes you get the odd clown who has had one too many and likes the sound of his own voice but I have never heard anything remotely racist or openly sectarian. It would not be tolerated by those around the offender.

On friday night the group I came to the match with with was just shy one leather clad biker (I was going to say Red Indian but pulled back given the recent PC climate) away from making up the Village People.

We had pretty much every religion, sexual preference and social demographic covered. Someone joked we could form the "Section 75" supporters club. Some of these people visiting for the first time - what a nice welcome they received from the stewards in the 2nd half.

Many people (a large porportion of them who post on this site) spend a lot of time, money and effort supporting Ulster both home and away. These people are real fans who care about Ulster Rugby.

For the branch to show the complete lack of faith in the supporters is unforgivable.

As far as I can see there is no off pitch leadership at all. nobody proactively supporting the supporters.

Where are the strong denials?

If Mike Reid refers to one individual shouting at one player then was this person removed/sanctioned/arrested? his statement was far too ambiguous - as such the incident stains us all.

Why didn't the branch issue a strong statement in support fo the fans (both individual and collective) whose reputation was dragged through the gutter press/media following the Brennangate affair?

In the light of Matt McCullough being cleared why didn't Ulster rugby issue a statement asking for a full apology from Brian Smith and London Irish for their conduct throughout that debacle?

Personally I don't know if I can face attending the Munster game. I might miss my first home match in years.

Without the supporters Ulster Rugby is nothing - maybe time to pay them some respect in return for what they show the team.


PS - Yes, yes - I know a "red indian" is now a native american...

[Wee Woman]

http://www.talknewport.co.uk
A friend of mine who travelled said the following:

I heard some of the comments directed at Aled Brew and Colin Charvis when he came on, and they were unpleasant to say the least. So much so, that I spoke to a steward at half time about it. Some of the comments were loud enough to be heard from pitchside where I was.

The most annoying thing was that Colin was signing autographs for fans (ulster and dragons) in the first half while he was warming up, only for comments like that to be made.

Totally contradictory post IMO. I've been on to the NGD board asking the poster in question to send the details to the UB so that these can be fully investigated.

I heard some of the comments directed at Aled Brew and Colin Charvis when he came on, and they were unpleasant to say the least. So much so, that I spoke to a steward at half time about it.
Eh? CC did not come on until the 2nd half??
The so called complaint was made supposedly by AB before the end of the 1st half on the terrace side of the pitch. CC was on the side of the pitch warming up??? Is this poster confused?

But then, the poster manages to dismiss that theory completely by saying what he says in the next sentence!

Don't know how much credence can be given to this account but I would certainly like them to forward the details to UB so it can be a. considered in a formal way or b. dismissed on account of the fact that it seems to be factually incorrect or confused in places.

Really tired of this, the bad press continues and all the usuals are queuing up to have another pop. I'm not going to argue that something was / was not said as I was not on the terrace but if there is a tool out there that is doing this sort of thing - let's get them out if it's proven that something racist was said.

[mack]

Couldn't agree more YM.

This player/players/team/management/club have made a public statement "Following a strong performance against Ulster the game was somewhat soured when the Newport Gwent Dragons team were singled out for racial abuse by a minority of the Ravenhill crowd"

There is no mention of the word "alleged" and I would love to know what the Code of Conduct is in relation to this type "allegation".

[mikerob]

LI made their compliant, it was found to be unjust, surely they should have been fined of made to pay all costs, as should Dragons "if" found to be the same ......it appears that you can make any allegation you want with out fear of repercussions.

There are two separate issues here - the correct process for making a complaint and the investigation of the complaint itself.

The LI complaint wasn't found to be "unjust" - the adjudication was there was insufficient evidence to progress the case.

The same could happen to Ulster. For example, an Ulster player says his b0ll0x were grabbed in the middle of a ruck, Ulster make a complaint, suspecting a particular player but that player denies it and there is no evidence to take the case further. Should Ulster be fined and ordered to pay all costs?

The whole point of making an official complaint is to formalise the collection and presentation of evidence, but you can't pre-judge if the evidence will be sufficient or not.

My view is that if a complaint is made by official channels and is dismissed, the complainant shouldn't be penalised for making it.

If a complaint is made outside of official channels and we end up in a "trial by media" situation, then there is a case for the complainant to be sanctioned for this - but as you say, there does need to be rules or guidelines for this to happen in the first place.

[the original kimble]

UTV Live at 6

Chairman speaks out.

I sure hope he does not make a fool of himself.


tok

[bogboy]

I'm sure chick is already droolin at the mouth

and since you'll have your clothes on

there is little chance of you making a fool of your self

Don't wear your red nose or big ears


















you mean they are your own

[mikerob]

What upsets me most is the handling of this recent run of events by UR.

Prior to anything being allegedly shouted on Friday night we were treated to an advance chastisement in the form of a pre-kick off politically correcty lecture by the anachronism that is the "entertainment".

This was also the case at the Ireland A game the previous Friday.

personally I was offended before the team took the pitch.

But the key point is not your hurt feelings but that UR needs to be SEEN MAKING a statement to fans about acceptable behaviour.

Just because you've never seen anything in the past is absolutely no guarantee that there won't be unnacceptable behaviour in the future. In fact, with attendances rising year after year, it becomes more and more likely that there will be an incident that can't be explained away by mishearing a Belfast accent.

[Wee Woman]

Reply from poster on NGD board:

WW, because I was there as a photographer I reported the abuse that I had heard coming from the terrace at half time, the steward then spoke to someone on a radio as I was changing ends.

I also mentioned this to Ulster's media officials at the end of the game.

As for the abuse, as far as I could tell it had continued, although greatly diminished in the second half, and I heard perhaps one or two comments after Charvis came on. Sorry for the confusion there.

I'm not sure but I think I saw some people being asked to leave, and it seemed to diminish after that point. However, I was then paying attention to photographing the dragons peppering the ulster try line so may not have been paying proper attention.

There was also someone far more senior (ground manager perhaps?) standing on the touchline in front of the terrace and liasing with police and stewards in the crowd, so it seemed diminished at that point.

To clarify in a concise manner:
1. I heard abuse from the terrace directed at Aled Brew during the first half.

2. I reported this at half-time to a steward

3. I heard less abuse in the second half, but perhaps one or two comments when Colin Charvis came on.

I will be speaking either to Ulster or Magners/Celtic Rugby directly.

THS.

Sheds a bit more light on things and TBH, I'm glad he will be bringing this forward to UB and the ML so that this can be investigated fully. If there is an idiot in our crowd lets get them out for good.

I guess we should wait out now and see what happens next with the formal complaint & investigation.

[Freddie Benson]

that's informative WW

perhaps others will know different, but from where I was in the vicinity of the banner on the terrace and where Brew and the steward seemed to be directing their attention, I could not see anyone being escorted out early.

Also if these comments were heard by a photographer on the pitch (why didn't he take pictures of culprit(s)?), then they should also have been heard by the stewards. Given the recent instructions to fans before games, one presumes that stewards have also been instructed to remove persons directly should they be observed behaving in the proscribed manner without waiting for a complaint from a spectator.