ELVs

[Jackie Brown]

Does anybody out there, players, officials, supporters have a clue what you are actually allowed to get away with at the breakdown? I'm completely baffled, the rules seem to change from game to game and have made the whole area complete mess and farce. Maybe it is just me but i think it's reduced rugby as a spectacle. Never thought i would miss the sight of a team mauling down the pitch with 8,000 cold supporters shouting HEEEEAAAVVVVVVEEEE. I do miss it though. I also think the game has become unbelievably scrappy. I hope these rules are chucked once the trial is over. I'm not impressed

[ColinM]

AFAIK the only rule around the breakdown that has changed is being allowed to pull down the rolling maul. That to me is a recipe for serious injury whether or not you pull it down by only grabbing the player between the wiast and shoulders.

The problem is that the refs have been told to ref the breakdown much more strictly and I dont know whether they feel obliged to blow the whistle more often as a result. I have to admit i havent watched too many games aside from Ulster's so far this season so i dont know if that is the case or if we just havent adjusted properly.

[Rooster]

Dewi, the Sky tv one, and Michael Lynagh were discussing the breakdown changes at half time in one of the matches at the weekend, their conclusion was the reffs have not got a clue what they are doing and are ruining the game at present as players and the spectators have not got a clue how the reff is thinking, they also blamed inconsistency as the game goes on and between different reffs and the fact that now the team going forward is usually penalised either for holding on or going off their feet. In principal they had no real complaints about ELV's just the breakdown tightening up that has occurred.
The Leinster v Munster game was refereed by our own Simon McDowell and he appeared to be very slack on enforcing the going off feet also he played advantage every time the ball was lost forward until the first pass after the steal by the opposition whether ground was made or not at that stage and the game flowed really well I thought, in fact one of the best games this year so far. Wouldn't be surprised if Simon got pulled for being too slack though by those above him

[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

The driving force behind ELVs was aussie rfu, in an effort to try and make rugby as attractive a spectator sport as NRL and aussie rules/AFL. New zealand also are experiencing low turnout to games and have tried a number of measures to make super 14 more appealing - this is simply one of those.

the changes brought in are designed in principal/theory to speed the game up, by reducing the amount of time the ball is scrambled over in a ruck or maul, and by encouraging players to attack with ball in hand by creating more space.

at a basic level of detail, they have tried to do this by creating space around scrum and line-outs, and by trying to enforce the rules more around rucks. southern hemisphere have also adopted the downgrading of a number of offences to freekick/short-arm penalties, in the place of full penalties.

this tho has backfired - as you say referees are being told to govern the ruck more, which is causing more whistle blowing and game actually being stopped more. giving backs more space to attack has had the effect of more kicking. southern hemisphere downgrading of offences has led to more offences at the breakdown, as the defending side now doesnt have to worry about conceding 3 points.

watched the canterbury hawkes bay game on saturday morning, and the number of stoppages was very high. the nz commentators were suggesting that the first 3 offences (if minor) are given as free kick. next as a penalty, then next as yellow card. this will reduce deliberate infringement.

another option i have heard is to allow receiving team to call 'mark' when receiving a kick anywhere up to their own 10 yard line. this will reduce aimless kicking.

you'll no doubt hear a number of other measures that every man and his dog will suggest to try and improve the game, however i'd be all for a full repeal of these ELVs, give referees the power to come down really hard on deliberate infringement, and tell them to wherever possible let the game flow and penalise retrospectively (once play has stopped, after an incident), and then leave union alone!

In the words of SA captain John Smit: "I was pretty happy with the product we've already got"

[Rooster]

How many times does it need to be said
The breakdown ruling is not part of the ELV's it is an old rule that was let slip in standard but now the IRB want it tightened up.

[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

Using BIG LETTERS should hopefully clear this one up!

[Jackie Brown]

Well all power to them, but they should really train the referees as to what they want to happen. As almost every union game i've watched this season in both the Guinness premiership and Magners League have had different rules at the breakdown!

[BR]

I'm normally very conservative when it comes to law changes, but I don't have a big problem with the continuing ELVs (I wasn't keen on the original SH versions with next to no scrums and frees rather than penalties). I have said for many years, "Don't bring in law changes; just enforce the ones we have properly." The directive at the rucks seems to be a step towards that, but we (and perhaps the ref's) need some clarification. Asking players to stay on their feet is a positive development; now if they could just remember that those who aren't are not part of the ruck. Being strict on the tackler rolling away is OK; but how many tackled players have you seen pinged for not moving away?

I don't think we'll really know how the ELVs work until this time next year; Once the boffins at the University of Canberra have exhausted their research grants developing methods to exploit the loopholes; and then everyone has had a chance to catch up on the Aussies' 'interprettation' of the laws. How many quick 'crooked' lineouts have we seen under the ELVs? I expected this to be a major change in tactic, but it doesn't seem to happened (... yet). The pass back into 22 law still confuses me - I'm told that by those still playing that it only applies for one phase; but I haven't seen that written anywhere (in fact I'm not sre the laws even define what a 'phase' is). The maul law is perhaps my biggest concern, but I agree that something needed to be changed to allow some sort of legal defence against a well set maul. I don't want to see an end to mauls, but I'm confident that methods will be developed to continue their use and avoid them being collapsed. Unsurprisingly I think Munster are leading the way here.

[Wee Bunz]

Rooster is compensating for having a small C ock!



WB

[Rooster]

Rooster is compensating for having a small C ock!



WB

Feck off short ar$e
Compensating for the planks that can't read the fine print and realise that the breakdown is not an ELV.

[browner]

http://uafc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7910

[cables]

I'm told that by those still playing that it only applies for one phase; but I haven't seen that written anywhere

When a team passes the ball back into their own 22, they are still able to gain territory advantage from a kick from within the 22 PROVIDED
the ball has been touched by an opposition player or
a tackle has been made or
there has been a ruck or
there has been a maul

Perhaps this is what those referring to 'one phase' are saying.

The Law variation also applies to the ball crossing into the 22
when from a scrum or
when from a lineout or
when a player goes back (across the 22) to take a quick throw-in.

[BR]

I'm told that by those still playing that it only applies for one phase; but I haven't seen that written anywhere

When a team passes the ball back into their own 22, they are still able to gain territory advantage from a kick from within the 22 PROVIDED
the ball has been touched by an opposition player or
a tackle has been made or
there has been a ruck or
there has been a maul

Perhaps this is what those referring to 'one phase' are saying.

The Law variation also applies to the ball crossing into the 22
when from a scrum or
when from a lineout or
when a player goes back (across the 22) to take a quick throw-in.

I must admit to only having read the original headline coverage of the ELVs and not examining the actual text itself.

[for dog and ulcer]

Dewi, the Sky tv one, and Michael Lynagh were discussing the breakdown changes at half time in one of the matches at the weekend, their conclusion was the reffs have not got a clue what they are doing and are ruining the game at present as players and the spectators have not got a clue how the reff is thinking, they also blamed inconsistency as the game goes on and between different reffs and the fact that now the team going forward is usually penalised either for holding on or going off their feet. In principal they had no real complaints about ELV's just the breakdown tightening up that has occurred.
The Leinster v Munster game was refereed by our own Simon McDowell and he appeared to be very slack on enforcing the going off feet also he played advantage every time the ball was lost forward until the first pass after the steal by the opposition whether ground was made or not at that stage and the game flowed really well I thought, in fact one of the best games this year so far. Wouldn't be surprised if Simon got pulled for being too slack though by those above him

Totally agree with both main points- a)the breakdown always was a mystery and it is worse than ever with the decision to apply the rules because of the inconsistency- I will confess that I have no idea what is happening now or likely to be whistled up and it happens so fast that I am not sure that refs can follow it either- the same applies to front row offences- I find it bizarre that Botha of all players should be sent off against the O's- not as if he is a newcomer to playing at this level- equally James looked genuinely shocked when he was whistled for a binding offence- I find these particularly strange when the ref is on the other side from the alleged offence unless he gets radio contact from the linesman?

b)I thought SMcD did a great job and it was reflected in the quality of the match- one of the best Magners games I have seen- I thought too that he was consistent and clear about the advantage- I am not one to often praise a ref but he deserves it in this case. Not so sure about the active linesman though- was it Mr "I demand respect at all costs"Jones?

[cables]

Touch Judges were programmed as :
Colin Stanley
David Wilkinson
Both IRFU

We have Carlo Damasco on Friday as referee. His officiated in the recent Cardiff v Connacht game.