First of all, I was delighted to see Ireland win the grand slam. From an Ulster perspective though this must be rock bottom. Zero Ulster players in the starting 15 (first time since 1947 I’m led to believe) and no Ulster born players in the entire squad for what must be the first time ever. Practically no representation in the Ireland U20 G/S win as well doesn’t bode too well for the future. Can it get any worse? Where does this end? What can be done? What is being done?!
How much worse would it be without all these foreign/Leinster imports. Dragons/Zebre level I’d say. How has one of the most successful Irish province sank so low. A team that not too long ago (well, the 80’s) was the best club team in Europe over a period of a decade. Our population is only just shy of Leinster and much more than Munster and Connacht yet they are producing far more and of a much higher standard. Like many’s an Ulster fan I have been calling for more Ulster players to be used but let’s be honest, 9 times out of 10 it has been the correct call by the selectors. Our boys aren’t a patch on some of those Leinster boys on show over the weekend. Nowhere near it.
Anyone in ‘the know’ enlighten us as to what is being done to change this. What are Petrie’s/Cunningham’s big ideas? Or do they care preferring the hear and now and avoiding any youth initiatives as it will be their successors that would see any benefit? Take the example of young Henry McErlean. If he stayed in Ulster he quite simply would never have played rugby but moves to Dublin and looks like he’s going to be a rugby star with Leinster. The GAA is a huge untapped opportunity and I know my local club are starting to make slight inroads into it with a couple of lads playing u16 level. My experience with GAA guys is they will follow Ireland and love the six nations but have zero interest in Ulster or club rugby. Unfortunately most still see it as ‘themmuns’ sport. A bit disappointing considering practically all of themmuns would give their right nut to play for Ireland. This seems to be changing but at a glacial pace.
The grand slam and potential World Cup gives us a chance to get people into the sport like never before. Will it be another opportunity missed by UR??
And to some extent (if not totatly) the team is selected on the basis of how much players are familiar with each other thus players from a province other than Leinster must be substantially better than the Leinster player to claim a place .
Ulster are not the only province where players have difficulty to make the 15
Within this carapace of skepticism there lives an optimist
I think you're probably overreacting on the U20s front. We had sixteen players in the previous two years' squads. Basically, we had a good crop, who have aged out of the U20s and mostly haven't broken through to the seniors yet. But Nathan Doak, Ben Moxham, Harry Sheridan and Jude Postlethwaite have already played for the senior team, and I'd say Doak and Sheridan are future internationals. (Moxham's not, but he's a useful squad player, and I haven't seen enough of Postlethwaite yet to say how far he'll go.) This year we had a poor crop, but James McNabney started every game, Rory Telfer got some tries, and Joe Hopes got a game a year early, so he should be a regular next season.
I think McCloskey may be handicapped by being a late developer. He was never on any age-grade teams, and didn't come onto Ulster's radar until after he left school. So the Ireland setup don't know him as well as players they've had their eyes on since they were wee bairns. I remember a few years ago Gareth Southgate why he was selecting John Stones for England ahead of Phil Jagielka, who was playing better, and he said they'd invested in Stones. The same is probably true of the players Ireland select, whether they're former U20 internationals or project players.
I hear what you're saying, Paddy, and the guys you mention certainly are good but we still have to look at the simple numbers. There just aren't enough coming through year on year. Something is broken. Working hand in hand with the GAA would be great but is it ever likely too happen? Until CMS schools and more state secondry schools start taking rugby seriously, we'll always be drawing from a pretty small group of grammar schools.
An IRFU stitch up. The system is rigged. Time for a draft style approach. Otherwise it's Leinster winning uncontested games. The interest levels drop in other provinces with blue dominance. Either that or split Leinster into two teams. Without four strong provinces Ireland will need to continue to recruit overseas.
Regarding the gaa, when I was in school I don't think I even knew what rugby was. It was 90% gaa . Now (40 year old) I bring 2 of my kids to play rugby on a sat morning ( I even volunteer to help the coaches) and I have met a few others dad's from the same school I went too, also bringing there kids. Some said they were interested in playing as a kid but it wasn't option at the time. Things are changing but it's going to take time. Also you have to remember gaa is completely embedded into the community you can't replicate that over night.
Also to the gaa, rugby is competition, its just going to take players away from gaa ( it's already has the advantage of possibly getting paid compared to gaa).
Maybe your right in most still see it as a "themmuns" sport, I know a few ( I think most I know are 70+), but it's changing.
Good info. I have worked with GAA clubs the last few years in more of a logistics role and I really do admire how much of a community spirit it evokes. Something we could only dream of. It’s such a close knit community that it’s hard to get them to break away from it. It runs through generations of family and that’s all they know/want to know. Regarding competition… there will be some who are much more suited to rugby and would be better off there. My local club there’s a few who play Gaelic football over summer and rugby over the winter. Everyone’s a winner. The fitness levels in the gaa boys are off the scale. Ulster rugby need to be striking while the irons hot and should be IRFU led.
Last edited by HammerTime on Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Numbers is an issue but what we do with the numbers we do have is another issue, particularly in the forwards. As an example McCann was captain of the same under-20s team as Cian Prendergast. I know captaincy isn’t a sign that he was a better player but given Prendergast didn’t get in to the Leinster academy it’s not a stretch to say Connacht have developed him better than Ulster have McCann given Prendergast is at present a probable for the RWC squad while McCann is not even guaranteed a spot in an Ulster 23.
A more recent example is Harry Sheridan and the comparison with Alex Soroka. I’m nearly certain Soroka made his Leinster debut last season, an an area of the pitch where Leinster have an embarrassment of riches even outside internationals being rested, while Sheridan is thrown in away to La Rochelle of January this year and thankfully played well.
In the case of McCann and Sheridan how many minutes of development could have been crucial in improving them but instead have been wasted on likes of Matty Rea and Greg Jones?
Number 10 is another blind spot in respect of trying to develop players. In the absence of any decent hopes within Ulster I can’t really see any decent players from other provinces wanting to waste their time coming here given Burns will play regardless of form or fitness and any decent performance (e.g. Flannery away to Sharks) is rewarded with demotion out of the 23.
I'm with Dave on this one.
It's good to see Ireland win a Slam and that isn't going to happen every year but if it's the Leinster team morphed into green then the other provinces are going to be more disinterested. Fans will disappear as the enthusiasm and interest wains with the inevitability of a one team league.
It suits the IRFU to have the current set up esp. with the WC in September but if fans and potential playing youngsters turn away then what do the IRFU do?
If I were a Leinster fan i'd be laughing atm but longer term the IRFU need to find some way the pull players from the other provinces for the national setup. Easier said than done as the best players are Dublin based. I just think it's a headache for the IRFU and the future.
As a Leinster fan, I am desperately worried about our dominance at the moment. It is no good for us if the other provinces cannot keep up. If, in fact, we damage the game in the rest of the country.
The core of the issue is the extraordinary development of players in a dozen or so schools. Keenan, Doris and Ringrose from Blackrock. Ryan, Kelleher and Baird from St Michaels. Sheehan and Beirne from Clongowes. Then one player each from other elite schools, Sexton,Healy, JOB, Porter, and JVDF. And I am only speaking of international level.
The other provinces need to get their schools and youth teams to a similar level. As a short term fix, I would not mind all 18 year old prospects for the Leinster academy being directed to the other provinces for two seasons. I know this interferes with educational choices but it might work. Alternatively, move the current u20s team en bloc away from Leinster. Imagine if Ulster had Prendergast at 10. Or if McErlean could return to Ulster.
Dublin4 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:13 pm
As a Leinster fan, I am desperately worried about our dominance at the moment. It is no good for us if the other provinces cannot keep up. If, in fact, we damage the game in the rest of the country.
The core of the issue is the extraordinary development of players in a dozen or so schools. Keenan, Doris and Ringrose from Blackrock. Ryan, Kelleher and Baird from St Michaels. Sheehan and Beirne from Clongowes. Then one player each from other elite schools, Sexton,Healy, JOB, Porter, and JVDF. And I am only speaking of international level.
The other provinces need to get their schools and youth teams to a similar level. As a short term fix, I would not mind all 18 year old prospects for the Leinster academy being directed to the other provinces for two seasons. I know this interferes with educational choices but it might work. Alternatively, move the current u20s team en bloc away from Leinster. Imagine if Ulster had Prendergast at 10. Or if McErlean could return to Ulster.
We do not have a prviate school system up here so the cash isnt there, and numbers arent either. The rugby programmes at the likes of St Michaels are a pipe dream for most schools here. Also, the selction process for those that go to underage Ulster training is massively flawed. In fact the underage system is extremely poor, and merely builds egos in some and disenfranchises others.
Dublin4 wrote:As a Leinster fan, I am desperately worried about our dominance at the moment. It is no good for us if the other provinces cannot keep up. If, in fact, we damage the game in the rest of the country.
The core of the issue is the extraordinary development of players in a dozen or so schools. Keenan, Doris and Ringrose from Blackrock. Ryan, Kelleher and Baird from St Michaels. Sheehan and Beirne from Clongowes. Then one player each from other elite schools, Sexton,Healy, JOB, Porter, and JVDF. And I am only speaking of international level.
The other provinces need to get their schools and youth teams to a similar level. As a short term fix, I would not mind all 18 year old prospects for the Leinster academy being directed to the other provinces for two seasons. I know this interferes with educational choices but it might work. Alternatively, move the current u20s team en bloc away from Leinster. Imagine if Ulster had Prendergast at 10. Or if McErlean could return to Ulster.
The other Provinces do not have the financial muscle to do what is happening in Leinster schools. The wealth distribution on the island is obviously outside the control of irish rugby but that's how Leinster do it. It will never be possible to replicate it without millions of pounds/euros coming from somewhere.
Dublin4 wrote:As a Leinster fan, I am desperately worried about our dominance at the moment. It is no good for us if the other provinces cannot keep up. If, in fact, we damage the game in the rest of the country.
The core of the issue is the extraordinary development of players in a dozen or so schools. Keenan, Doris and Ringrose from Blackrock. Ryan, Kelleher and Baird from St Michaels. Sheehan and Beirne from Clongowes. Then one player each from other elite schools, Sexton,Healy, JOB, Porter, and JVDF. And I am only speaking of international level.
The other provinces need to get their schools and youth teams to a similar level. As a short term fix, I would not mind all 18 year old prospects for the Leinster academy being directed to the other provinces for two seasons. I know this interferes with educational choices but it might work. Alternatively, move the current u20s team en bloc away from Leinster. Imagine if Ulster had Prendergast at 10. Or if McErlean could return to Ulster.
The other Provinces do not have the financial muscle to do what is happening in Leinster schools. The wealth distribution on the island is obviously outside the control of irish rugby but that's how Leinster do it. It will never be possible to replicate it without millions of pounds/euros coming from somewhere.
There has to be a draft system brought in. No other option!
Look at the u20s, none of them are close to starting for their provincial side but yet the English and French players are.
Get Pendergast, McErlean, Gleeson moving around the provinces now.
For all the things that Farrell has done well I think he made the life of Nuciforia ten times hard by calling in Penny to the squad.
The IRFU can take absolutely no credit whatsoever for the development of the players coming from Leinster, if they didn’t have private schools they would be in tatters.
Not convinced a draft is the way to go, but a second tier, semi-pro competition in beween the provinces and the All Ireland League, like the Scottish Super 6, might be a good idea as a bridge between the clubs and the U20s on the one hand and the provinces on the other, to give players more competitive experience. Bruce Houston, who came through Ulster's academy but didn't make the senior squad, played in the Super 6 and got picked up by Edinburgh.
