Leinster VS Ulster HC QF 01/04/23

[rumncoke]

The summation in 42 is a bit to clever to be real

It compares the yardage kick by leinster to that of Ulster and then Points at Lowe kicking at Lowry and baird Tackle of Lowry

Lowe always kicks long any time when leinster are inside their 22 it is their normal game plan nothing new .

Ulster's mistake was to kick off into the Leinster 22 too far and not really contestable . Lowe kicked apox. 400 of leinsters 1000 metres

The Leinster pressure was the product of Pearce's refereeing and the inconsistent manner he applied Off-side at the Ruck

players were not being penalised for not being behind the last foot in the ruck out side the 22 but were being penalised after responding to hands on the ball at the base of the ruck .

If you think I'm being harsh on Pearce watch the play from 28mins in the first half to 38 minutes

Ryan lifts and Ulster players leg in the maul in an attempt to bring it down -- Leinster form a double line in the Lineout not penalised

After he disallows the try for the knock -on he restarts the match with and off side call against Ulster --which had not been called prior to the Touch down attempt --and in fact no Ulster Players were off side because the players had one foot behind the try line

He became obsessed with calling off side it being the only offence he appeared to know and understand .

the pressure Ulster were under came as much from the referee as from leinster.

The fact is leinster played him

[Cap'n Grumpy]

If it was to do with demographics then England and France would dominate world rugby and NZ/Wales/Ireland would get hammered 50 points to them.

McFarland & the Ulster branch need to remember that there is almost 2million people in NI, another 400,000 in the other 3 counties I think and we’ve a decent economy/capital city.

Ulster shouldn’t be that far behind Leinster. We have the population/economy and fan base to be at their level, not to mention the rugby and sporting culture.

Not disagreeing with anything you say, but it's also worth noting that probably only around 10%* of the population in Norn Iron go to rugby playing schools and even there can get get very little and/or poor coaching.

* back of a fag packet rough calculation based on
~ 50% female
~ 40+% of remainder go to Catholic Maintained Schools where rugby not played
~ 70% of remainder got to secondary schools where rugby is not played, or if it is, to a very low standard.

Of the 400k in the other 3 counties, again 50% female, and the boys mostly do not go to schools with a rugby tradition, albeit some may go to schools in N.I. (as Tommy Bowe did).

Rugby has also been politicised in N.I. - indirectly - in that Catholic Maintained Schools have traditionally not only not played rugby, but have been opposed to it, preferring instead to steer all pupils involved in sport down the GAA routes. That is their choice - they are entitled to that, and i respect that, but it just needs to be remembered that of the 2m+ mentioned above, a fair percentage have traditionally not supported at best, and been opposed to at worst, which makes comparisons with the other three provinces difficult.

For all boys/men who fall outside the traditional rugby schools in the 9 counties, it is for the clubs to pick these up, but by then most will have started later and only the very skilled and dedicated will emerge.

Schools in ROI by contrast have not politicised rugby - not in recent years anyway - and even for those that attend schools that don't traditionally play rugby (of which, like N.I. there are many), at least they are not actively discouraged from playing the game.

Things are changing in N.I. which is to be welcomed, but that change is still slower than most would like, and it will take years to remove the certain amount of prejudice there still is in some parts of the community to "foreign games."

[Cap'n Grumpy]

After he disallows the try for the knock -on he restarts the match with and off side call against Ulster --which had not been called prior to the Touch down attempt --and in fact no Ulster Players were off side because the players had one foot behind the try line

I could well be wrong as my memory of this is fading, but

1 - IIRC, ref had called that he was playing advantage. I knew that if the try was disallowed, we were going back for a Leinster penalty.

2 - again my understanding of the laws by be out of date or just plain wrong, but for a player to be onside on their own try line, it is my understanding that both feet have to be behind the line, and one or both hands, if touching the ground with their hand(s). It's not enough just to have one foot onside, but other parts of your body offside.

[StandUp]

After he disallows the try for the knock -on he restarts the match with and off side call against Ulster --which had not been called prior to the Touch down attempt --and in fact no Ulster Players were off side because the players had one foot behind the try line

I could well be wrong as my memory of this is fading, but

1 - IIRC, ref had called that he was playing advantage. I knew that if the try was disallowed, we were going back for a Leinster penalty.

2 - again my understanding of the laws by be out of date or just plain wrong, but for a player to be onside on their own try line, it is my understanding that both feet have to be behind the line, and one or both hands, if touching the ground with their hand(s). It's not enough just to have one foot onside, but other parts of your body offside.

You are correct on both points Grumps.

[Bobbievee]

After he disallows the try for the knock -on he restarts the match with and off side call against Ulster --which had not been called prior to the Touch down attempt --and in fact no Ulster Players were off side because the players had one foot behind the try line

I could well be wrong as my memory of this is fading, but

1 - IIRC, ref had called that he was playing advantage. I knew that if the try was disallowed, we were going back for a Leinster penalty.

2 - again my understanding of the laws by be out of date or just plain wrong, but for a player to be onside on their own try line, it is my understanding that both feet have to be behind the line, and one or both hands, if touching the ground with their hand(s). It's not enough just to have one foot onside, but other parts of your body offside.

My understanding also.
More importantly what do the players understand, and if there is a problem, it is for the captain to broker understanding between the refs interpretation and his own players. You can’t just keep doing it!
And if we spend the bulk of the match defending from positions inside our own 22, ( due to poor kick returns and choices ) then offsides will accrue…….irrespective of who the ref is.
Re the Kinsella article, and the posts on that web page. I agree that there is a UR weakness which Leinster exploited to the full around the length and standard of kicking
UR chiefly kick from 9/10. Both substandard in quality. 10 not long enough, 9 ( chiefly Doak) not accurate enough, and therefore mostly “hopeful” ……..and also 15 ( neither accurate nor long) .
Ironically Stockdale and Stu seem to have the longest kicks, but seldom deployed.
Does DmcF decide on this? Whose job is it to tackle that specific skills weakness? We have lost games in this season and before with poor kicking decisions and implementation in the last 5/10 minutes. On this occasion Leinster just didn’t allow us to get that close.

[DodgyEverything]

Often wonder why we don't use Hume as an option for either clearance kicks or long range pops at goal. Watching him play through school he had an absolute cannon and was knocking them over from halfway

[Godots bedpan]

Stuart Lancaster, and fairplay to him for saying it in an age of pc and boring media-trained interviewees, set out his stall yesterday, saying it’s nothing to do with demographics, just coaching, and I do agree. Should make for some interesting team talks in the next fortnight, would love to see the dice roll so that we get another crack at them in the league playoffs, although unlikely unless we can beat Stormers away.

Noted also that Gerry Thornley and Fiona Coghlan both praised the Uster effort, attack play and commitment on Saturday and agreed Pearce was tough on several occasions, particularly Hume yellow. Discipline, discipline, discipline….

If it was to do with demographics then England and France would dominate world rugby and NZ/Wales/Ireland would get hammered 50 points to them.

McFarland & the Ulster branch need to remember that there is almost 2million people in NI, another 400,000 in the other 3 counties I think and we’ve a decent economy/capital city.

Ulster shouldn’t be that far behind Leinster. We have the population/economy and fan base to be at their level, not to mention the rugby and sporting culture.

It’s a loser mentality. Ulster need to get the club and school producing more.

Look at the calibre of players coming through the Leinster club structure. Tadge Beirne, Sean o’brien, Furlong, Jamie Osborne etc.

Ulster rugby need to accept we have a lot going for us and stop looking for excuses.

Beirne was Clongowes , his parents did drop €120K educating him tbf Good investment for the IRFU!

The Leinster clubs output is pretty patchy, think that's true across the board. People like O'Brien and Furlong are just physical specimens who made it almost despite the system when they came through not because of it, producing a player that good was a one off for both Tullow and New Ross clubs. Player identification better now but suspect there are still lots of players slipping through the cracks or deciding to play GAA/wendyball.

Think some clubs like Naas where Osborne comes from are doing really well developing players outside the "elite" school system - Osborne's younger brother Andrew also pretty handy. One of their forgotten products is Adam Byrne who when he burst on the Leinster scene looked like he had the potential to go on to be a 50 cap international. Cant remember for sure but I think they were D3 in the AIL when Byrne came through. Maybe the union needs to identify what clubs like Naas are doing differently in terms of underage development and roll out that template across all 4 provinces. Genetically the 13 year olds are 99.99% the same across the 4 provinces. Its a biological truism, genotype + environment = phenotype.

Haven't seen it mentioned much in this thread but Payne's departure for me has been a significant loss to Ulster. Rolls Royce of a player and a shrewd coach for my money.

[paddybrown]

Payne's departure has come up before, but I really don't think that's the issue. Don't forget, we were having defensive collapses in the last ten minutes last season when he was still here - we've only got a grip on that in the later part of this season. A bigger issue this season has been what's happened to the attack. The back line hasn't been nearly as effective as last year, and the forwards aren't getting much penetration on carries close to the try line (Harry Sheridan against the Sharks being the notable exception). Hard to blame that on the loss of a defence coach.

[shamalicious]

We don't have a specialist attack coach - bound to have an impact.

Sent from my SM-S908B using Tapatalk

[StandUp]

Soper was touted as the second coming (I didn’t mention spit). Maybe he will rise this Sunday

[jean valjean]

Is soper a definition of the Peter principle? He was excellent as a technical skills coach but was given a promotion to a role he had little experience for at the top level.

[CIMANFOREVER]

We miss both Peel and Payne. Doak would have a fast track mentor.
The more I watch Moore at 15, Im convinced he's the better option than ML. Time to give Lowry a run at 10, even in selected games next year. If Addison was back I'd have him at 15 in a heartbeat - Payne like

[CIMANFOREVER]

Is soper a definition of the Peter principle? He was excellent as a technical skills coach but was given a promotion to a role he had little experience for at the top level.

What's Willie Falloon doing?!

[HammerTime]

Stuart Lancaster, and fairplay to him for saying it in an age of pc and boring media-trained interviewees, set out his stall yesterday, saying it’s nothing to do with demographics, just coaching, and I do agree. Should make for some interesting team talks in the next fortnight, would love to see the dice roll so that we get another crack at them in the league playoffs, although unlikely unless we can beat Stormers away.

Noted also that Gerry Thornley and Fiona Coghlan both praised the Uster effort, attack play and commitment on Saturday and agreed Pearce was tough on several occasions, particularly Hume yellow. Discipline, discipline, discipline….

If it was to do with demographics then England and France would dominate world rugby and NZ/Wales/Ireland would get hammered 50 points to them.

McFarland & the Ulster branch need to remember that there is almost 2million people in NI, another 400,000 in the other 3 counties I think and we’ve a decent economy/capital city.

Ulster shouldn’t be that far behind Leinster. We have the population/economy and fan base to be at their level, not to mention the rugby and sporting culture.

It’s a loser mentality. Ulster need to get the club and school producing more.

Look at the calibre of players coming through the Leinster club structure. Tadge Beirne, Sean o’brien, Furlong, Jamie Osborne etc.

Ulster rugby need to accept we have a lot going for us and stop looking for excuses.

Beirne was Clongowes , his parents did drop €120K educating him tbf Good investment for the IRFU!

The Leinster clubs output is pretty patchy, think that's true across the board. People like O'Brien and Furlong are just physical specimens who made it almost despite the system when they came through not because of it, producing a player that good was a one off for both Tullow and New Ross clubs. Player identification better now but suspect there are still lots of players slipping through the cracks or deciding to play GAA/wendyball.

Think some clubs like Naas where Osborne comes from are doing really well developing players outside the "elite" school system - Osborne's younger brother Andrew also pretty handy. One of their forgotten products is Adam Byrne who when he burst on the Leinster scene looked like he had the potential to go on to be a 50 cap international. Cant remember for sure but I think they were D3 in the AIL when Byrne came through. Maybe the union needs to identify what clubs like Naas are doing differently in terms of underage development and roll out that template across all 4 provinces. Genetically the 13 year olds are 99.99% the same across the 4 provinces. Its a biological truism, genotype + environment = phenotype.

Haven't seen it mentioned much in this thread but Payne's departure for me has been a significant loss to Ulster. Rolls Royce of a player and a shrewd coach for my money.

How ethical is the whole Leinster schools set up? Are these young lads going to school plus some high level rugby or are they going to professional rugby clubs that do a bit of schooling on the side? Also, it’s seems that many of the rich and well to do in the south are sending their kids here for one reason it's not to get an education but to potentially be a rugby star. The whole thing ... south Dublin money people/bankers/snobs is all just a bit puke.

[thecrouch]

Stuart Lancaster, and fairplay to him for saying it in an age of pc and boring media-trained interviewees, set out his stall yesterday, saying it’s nothing to do with demographics, just coaching, and I do agree. Should make for some interesting team talks in the next fortnight, would love to see the dice roll so that we get another crack at them in the league playoffs, although unlikely unless we can beat Stormers away.

Noted also that Gerry Thornley and Fiona Coghlan both praised the Uster effort, attack play and commitment on Saturday and agreed Pearce was tough on several occasions, particularly Hume yellow. Discipline, discipline, discipline….

If it was to do with demographics then England and France would dominate world rugby and NZ/Wales/Ireland would get hammered 50 points to them.

McFarland & the Ulster branch need to remember that there is almost 2million people in NI, another 400,000 in the other 3 counties I think and we’ve a decent economy/capital city.

Ulster shouldn’t be that far behind Leinster. We have the population/economy and fan base to be at their level, not to mention the rugby and sporting culture.

It’s a loser mentality. Ulster need to get the club and school producing more.

Look at the calibre of players coming through the Leinster club structure. Tadge Beirne, Sean o’brien, Furlong, Jamie Osborne etc.

Ulster rugby need to accept we have a lot going for us and stop looking for excuses.

Beirne was Clongowes , his parents did drop €120K educating him tbf Good investment for the IRFU!

The Leinster clubs output is pretty patchy, think that's true across the board. People like O'Brien and Furlong are just physical specimens who made it almost despite the system when they came through not because of it, producing a player that good was a one off for both Tullow and New Ross clubs. Player identification better now but suspect there are still lots of players slipping through the cracks or deciding to play GAA/wendyball.

Think some clubs like Naas where Osborne comes from are doing really well developing players outside the "elite" school system - Osborne's younger brother Andrew also pretty handy. One of their forgotten products is Adam Byrne who when he burst on the Leinster scene looked like he had the potential to go on to be a 50 cap international. Cant remember for sure but I think they were D3 in the AIL when Byrne came through. Maybe the union needs to identify what clubs like Naas are doing differently in terms of underage development and roll out that template across all 4 provinces. Genetically the 13 year olds are 99.99% the same across the 4 provinces. Its a biological truism, genotype + environment = phenotype.

Haven't seen it mentioned much in this thread but Payne's departure for me has been a significant loss to Ulster. Rolls Royce of a player and a shrewd coach for my money.

How ethical is the whole Leinster schools set up? Are these young lads going to school plus some high level rugby or are they going to professional rugby clubs that do a bit of schooling on the side? Also, it’s seems that many of the rich and well to do in the south are sending their kids here for one reason it's not to get an education but to potentially be a rugby star. The whole thing ... south Dublin money people/bankers/snobs is all just a bit puke.

Kids are definitely being sent for the rugby.

Caelan Doris is from Mayo! Played his club rugby in Mayo as a young lad.

Was sent to boarding school in Blackrock.