Manchester

Fancy a pint? Join the crai­c and non-rugby topics here.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Rooster
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 40137
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:39 am
Location: Chicken coop 17

Re: Manchester

Post by Rooster »

You know when you start to think about it Kim Jong Wan is not as crazy as he seems, Yanks know he is on verge of or has nukes, he has a shed load of normal missiles he can let fly at South Korea if anyone trys to depose him by force so he can basically run his country whatever way he likes and if the USA think he should get democratic he inevitably would get overthrown but the devastation he would cause in an hour would not be worth it , the man is a feckin genius not a fruitcake.
“That made me feel very special and underlined to me that Ulster is more than a team, it is a community and a rugby family"
Rory Best
CIMANFOREVER
Lord Chancellor
Posts: 4528
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:16 pm
Location: The Dufferin

Re: Manchester

Post by CIMANFOREVER »

Apposite and timely article today in BT by Sean O'Driscoll regarding Islam's general attitude to everyone else and Muslim hypocrisy, especially in majority Islamic Countries.
Exterminate all rational thought
bazzaj

Re: Manchester

Post by bazzaj »

BaggyTrousers wrote:
bazzaj wrote:
mikerob wrote:You've got a couple of things in common with the Manchester bomber bazaaj.

You both don't want a liberal society and you are both wrong.
Interesting that you say I'm wrong Mike yet CIMANs brilliant post above echoes my sentiments exactly though 10 times as eloquently put but you didn't call him out.

Also you chose to ignore I was the one on here that refused to believe this was not the work of a lone Wolf and there was a more prevalent network.
Looks like I'm proved right in that regard yet you didn't mention that either

You are confusimg my rejection of modern leftist elitist liberalism with actual liberalism which are poles apart.
The whole modern concept I find to be full of hypocrisy and a perversion of actual liberalism.

The liberals ideals are the stuff of utopia but when you put these evil wrongdoers in to the mix they take advantage of our values.
I do not believe a liberal solution can be found to such a problem.

I find it worrying that intelligent people refuse to see there is a problem within a particular group of people as they need to cling to a set of values that defines them.
To say otherwise would be a contradiction to their values which as it defines them, is effectively a rejection of themselves.

That's the difference with me I don't aline myself to any particular group of ideals or people as I find it limits thinking.and clouds judgement.
No better example of that than in Northern Irish politics.

This is of some frustration to people who are always desperate to categorise. but at least I'm capable of seeing the wood for the trees.
Juzzbomb, this wordy post can be condensed into two sentences:

1) I (you) said he was not a lone wolf and everybody else said he was.
2) if it weren't for so-called liberal values we would sort this out in minutes.

Both utterances mildly insane not to mention incorrect as a little thought and research would demonstrate.

What makes these motherfuc'kers so different from your standard IRA or ETA terrorist is that they wanted to live to see their aims brought about, whereas these clowns believe they are going to a better place and have no interest in surviving , hence they are far more difficult to frustrate.

I say frustrate Jizzer because only a fool thinks it is possible to prevent this type of terrorism. For example, let's say we put you in charge and you said loud and clear that the entire family of such bombers would be executed, you have a rush of volunteers, not only would they but their entire family would have a free pass to paradise.

Maybe you'd tell us wussy washy namby pamby liberals quite how you would stop them?
If I could sum it up in two sentences I would have used two sentences Baggy.
Your convient amnesia can be sorted out by reading through the previous pages from the start of the thread where I outline quite clearly what needs to happen in my opinion and who was saying what about lone wolves.

I never said anything about it being solved in minutes which is yet another incorrect assumption made, along with my so called racist views.

I will simply say this.

Peoples refusal to believe that there is a more prevalent problem of radicalisation and the existence of terror cells within our communities as opposed to isolated incidents is both naive and short sight sighted.
Its this thinking I believe has hindered our preventative action thus far..

However my one hope is that this theory has unravelled in the aftermath of this latest horrific attack.
It would appear it has.

People would rather cling to liberal core values rather than risk offence to another group of people by apportioning responsiblity in their direction.
Clearly this mindset has to change or there will be no solution.
.
Academic research is one thing but sitting in an office compiling statistics has the massive oversight of a human factor.

People can shoot my opinions down in flames, I don't take it personally as I don't see it as a personal attack.
But when your political values define who you are it's a different story.

Now that's as simply as I can put it.
User avatar
solidarity
Chancellor to the King
Posts: 3884
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:00 pm

Re: Manchester

Post by solidarity »

CIMANFOREVER wrote:
solidarity wrote:If you want an example of Neill's point above about the difference between journalism and academic research, have a look at the HARDtalk interview with Gilles Kepel at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg2m/episodes/guide.
quick question to both Neil and yourself; what's the academic researchers "Null hypotheses" regarding counteracting these radicalised individuals and the wider fundamentalist strain of Islam then? If theyr'e publishing any academic research, they must have one/some.
I'm not really a card carrying academic but I suppose it depends what their original hypotheses are. I guess that if the common belief is that we should fight fire with fire, the null hypothesis is that there is no significant historical evidence that fighting terrorism with equal brutality actually defeats it. As I said, I'm guessing here or to put it another way, shooting in the dark. :shock:
User avatar
BaggyTrousers
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 30337
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:29 pm
Location: España

Re: Manchester

Post by BaggyTrousers »

bazzaj wrote:
BaggyTrousers wrote:
bazzaj wrote:
mikerob wrote:You've got a couple of things in common with the Manchester bomber bazaaj.

You both don't want a liberal society and you are both wrong.
Interesting that you say I'm wrong Mike yet CIMANs brilliant post above echoes my sentiments exactly though 10 times as eloquently put but you didn't call him out.

Also you chose to ignore I was the one on here that refused to believe this was not the work of a lone Wolf and there was a more prevalent network.
Looks like I'm proved right in that regard yet you didn't mention that either

You are confusimg my rejection of modern leftist elitist liberalism with actual liberalism which are poles apart.
The whole modern concept I find to be full of hypocrisy and a perversion of actual liberalism.

The liberals ideals are the stuff of utopia but when you put these evil wrongdoers in to the mix they take advantage of our values.
I do not believe a liberal solution can be found to such a problem.

I find it worrying that intelligent people refuse to see there is a problem within a particular group of people as they need to cling to a set of values that defines them.
To say otherwise would be a contradiction to their values which as it defines them, is effectively a rejection of themselves.

That's the difference with me I don't aline myself to any particular group of ideals or people as I find it limits thinking.and clouds judgement.
No better example of that than in Northern Irish politics.

This is of some frustration to people who are always desperate to categorise. but at least I'm capable of seeing the wood for the trees.
Juzzbomb, this wordy post can be condensed into two sentences:

1) I (you) said he was not a lone wolf and everybody else said he was.
2) if it weren't for so-called liberal values we would sort this out in minutes.

Both utterances mildly insane not to mention incorrect as a little thought and research would demonstrate.

What makes these motherfuc'kers so different from your standard IRA or ETA terrorist is that they wanted to live to see their aims brought about, whereas these clowns believe they are going to a better place and have no interest in surviving , hence they are far more difficult to frustrate.

I say frustrate Jizzer because only a fool thinks it is possible to prevent this type of terrorism. For example, let's say we put you in charge and you said loud and clear that the entire family of such bombers would be executed, you have a rush of volunteers, not only would they but their entire family would have a free pass to paradise.

Maybe you'd tell us wussy washy namby pamby liberals quite how you would stop them?
If I could sum it up in two sentences I would have used two sentences Baggy.
Your convient amnesia can be sorted out by reading through the previous pages from the start of the thread where I outline quite clearly what needs to happen in my opinion and who was saying what about lone wolves.

I never said anything about it being solved in minutes which is yet another incorrect assumption made, along with my so called racist views.

I will simply say this.

Peoples refusal to believe that there is a more prevalent problem of radicalisation and the existence of terror cells within our communities as opposed to isolated incidents is both naive and short sight sighted.
Its this thinking I believe has hindered our preventative action thus far..

However my one hope is that this theory has unravelled in the aftermath of this latest horrific attack.
It would appear it has.

People would rather cling to liberal core values rather than risk offence to another group of people by apportioning responsiblity in their direction.
Clearly this mindset has to change or there will be no solution.
.
Academic research is one thing but sitting in an office compiling statistics has the massive oversight of a human factor.

People can shoot my opinions down in flames, I don't take it personally as I don't see it as a personal attack.
But when your political values define who you are it's a different story.

Now that's as simply as I can put it.
JIzzer, I read the start of your post and got bored, sorry but you are now in the usual cycle of "I didn't say that but you said blah blah blah". I'm not playing the game this time.
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
bazzaj

Re: Manchester

Post by bazzaj »

That's fair enough my friendl but don't make false assumptions about me in future and I won't feel the need to bore you.
User avatar
Dave
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 24533
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:27 pm

Re: Manchester

Post by Dave »

So it's appearing that 'these communities' were speaking out and several concerns were raised about Abedi. Why nothing was done is unclear at this stage. I'm sure Theresa May as home secretary cutting 20,000 from the police force didn't help. Theresa May as prime minister then decides 5,000 soldiers are needed on the streets to protect the public.

#trident
I have my own tv channel, what have you got?
Cockatrice
Lord Chancellor
Posts: 8218
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:06 am

Re: Manchester

Post by Cockatrice »

Dave wrote:So it's appearing that 'these communities' were speaking out and several concerns were raised about Abedi. Why nothing was done is unclear at this stage. I'm sure Theresa May as home secretary cutting 20,000 from the police force didn't help. Theresa May as prime minister then decides 5,000 soldiers are needed on the streets to protect the public.

#trident
Its not just about 20,000 extra boobies on the streets many in these community simply don't trust the police and they remain distanced from not only the police but the wider society.. there are some programs that are trying to tackle the issues using the local community however in many cases some within those same communities are again suspicious and want to control the mechanism for themselves.. which in turn would be dangerous.

It was interesting to see the Didbury Mosque Imam whilst denouncing the attack and claiming that he reported the individual to police being asked had he ever been a member of the same Libyan organisation.. the BBC then shown the same person in uniform on the ground in Libya as part of an armed struggle... the Imam refused to comment.
Currently studying Stage 5 (level3) at IRFU
User avatar
Rooster
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 40137
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:39 am
Location: Chicken coop 17

Re: Manchester

Post by Rooster »

Cockatrice wrote:
Dave wrote:So it's appearing that 'these communities' were speaking out and several concerns were raised about Abedi. Why nothing was done is unclear at this stage. I'm sure Theresa May as home secretary cutting 20,000 from the police force didn't help. Theresa May as prime minister then decides 5,000 soldiers are needed on the streets to protect the public.

#trident
Its not just about 20,000 extra boobies on the streets many in these community simply don't trust the police and they remain distanced from not only the police but the wider society.. there are some programs that are trying to tackle the issues using the local community however in many cases some within those same communities are again suspicious and want to control the mechanism for themselves.. which in turn would be dangerous.

It was interesting to see the Didbury Mosque Imam whilst denouncing the attack and claiming that he reported the individual to police being asked had he ever been a member of the same Libyan organisation.. the BBC then shown the same person in uniform on the ground in Libya as part of an armed struggle... the Imam refused to comment.
It is telling that these guys were anti Gaddafi and in theory then at least were on the same side as UK and US in the war to depose him, yes Gaddafi supplied gus etc to here and other places but at the same time he kept the mobs at home under control, same goes for Saddam and I will say that Assad is also in the same bracket yet the US coalition keep deposing these guys and don't seem to have learned that dictatorship still works in some regions.
“That made me feel very special and underlined to me that Ulster is more than a team, it is a community and a rugby family"
Rory Best
User avatar
Dave
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 24533
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:27 pm

Re: Manchester

Post by Dave »

Cockatrice wrote:
Dave wrote:So it's appearing that 'these communities' were speaking out and several concerns were raised about Abedi. Why nothing was done is unclear at this stage. I'm sure Theresa May as home secretary cutting 20,000 from the police force didn't help. Theresa May as prime minister then decides 5,000 soldiers are needed on the streets to protect the public.

#trident
Its not just about 20,000 extra boobies on the streets many in these community simply don't trust the police and they remain distanced from not only the police but the wider society.. there are some programs that are trying to tackle the issues using the local community however in many cases some within those same communities are again suspicious and want to control the mechanism for themselves.. which in turn would be dangerous.

It was interesting to see the Didbury Mosque Imam whilst denouncing the attack and claiming that he reported the individual to police being asked had he ever been a member of the same Libyan organisation.. the BBC then shown the same person in uniform on the ground in Libya as part of an armed struggle... the Imam refused to comment.
You could copy and post all that and apply it to here. I'd imagine you're not a spokesperson for 'these communities' but anyway shirley more community POs on the ground building relationships would help. Some areas have Muslim officers who speak Arabic and attend the local mosques. I'd advocate for more of this rather than cutting numbers. As far as I've read the reporting of Abedi was carried out through the anonymous hotline by several different sources. The police federation bitterly opposed the cuts to police numbers and warned that this would compromise safety. I'm sure you will let us know why they were wrong.

Abedi reportedly heckled the imam in Didsbury Mosque, accusing him of 'talking horlix', when he condemned the Paris attacks. Abedi was reported to the police after this. Abedi was supposedly even reported by members of his own family. His neighbor had taken to filming him and he had just returned from Libya. His every move should have been scrutinized.
I have my own tv channel, what have you got?
Cockatrice
Lord Chancellor
Posts: 8218
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:06 am

Re: Manchester

Post by Cockatrice »

Rooster.... it is indeed interesting that this batch appear to have fought on the same side as us (so to speak) probably not only armed but trained by us as well no doubt. Not the first time Bin Laden was one of ours also.

I reckon if Assad tumbles the Middle East clusterfeck will increase ten fold.
Currently studying Stage 5 (level3) at IRFU
User avatar
Rooster
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 40137
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:39 am
Location: Chicken coop 17

Re: Manchester

Post by Rooster »

Cockatrice wrote:Rooster.... it is indeed interesting that this batch appear to have fought on the same side as us (so to speak) probably not only armed but trained by us as well no doubt. Not the first time Bin Laden was one of ours also.

I reckon if Assad tumbles the Middle East clusterfeck will increase ten fold.
I'm firmly in the Putin theory about Assad, he might not be what westerners think as a good leader of a country but he is a heck of a lot better than what would come after him if he was defeated, he wants rid of ISIS as much as anyone does so why the heck not help him to snuff them out.
“That made me feel very special and underlined to me that Ulster is more than a team, it is a community and a rugby family"
Rory Best
User avatar
Snipe Watson
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 23443
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:42 pm

Re: Manchester

Post by Snipe Watson »

Rooster wrote:
Cockatrice wrote:Rooster.... it is indeed interesting that this batch appear to have fought on the same side as us (so to speak) probably not only armed but trained by us as well no doubt. Not the first time Bin Laden was one of ours also.

I reckon if Assad tumbles the Middle East clusterfeck will increase ten fold.
I'm firmly in the Putin theory about Assad, he might not be what westerners think as a good leader of a country but he is a heck of a lot better than what would come after him if he was defeated, he wants rid of ISIS as much as anyone does so why the heck not help him to snuff them out.
It's just more of the idiotic ill informed western approach to the middle east.
User avatar
Rooster
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 40137
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:39 am
Location: Chicken coop 17

Re: Manchester

Post by Rooster »

Snipe Watson wrote:
Rooster wrote:
Cockatrice wrote:Rooster.... it is indeed interesting that this batch appear to have fought on the same side as us (so to speak) probably not only armed but trained by us as well no doubt. Not the first time Bin Laden was one of ours also.

I reckon if Assad tumbles the Middle East clusterfeck will increase ten fold.
I'm firmly in the Putin theory about Assad, he might not be what westerners think as a good leader of a country but he is a heck of a lot better than what would come after him if he was defeated, he wants rid of ISIS as much as anyone does so why the heck not help him to snuff them out.
It's just more of the idiotic ill informed western approach to the middle east.
I think it is not so much ill informed but more a idealistic thought that everyone should adhere to Western values.
“That made me feel very special and underlined to me that Ulster is more than a team, it is a community and a rugby family"
Rory Best
User avatar
Dave
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 24533
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:27 pm

Re: Manchester

Post by Dave »

Syria is an extremely complex situation. Far far far more than Assad versus ISIS. Assad may wish to snuff out ISIS but also his own people or anyone who opposes his regime.
I have my own tv channel, what have you got?
Post Reply