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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:39 pm
by Neil F
BaggyTrousers wrote:There may well be something in that Neil, however I come from a position of disliking censorship. Far better to expose a ballix to the vast majority than to try to stem his appeal to assholes by the remarkably ineffective means of keeping him physically out of the country, he will pervade the airwaves whether from his home base or in the UK/Europe.

Censoring him will not break his ability to communicate with assholes, and their views as you say are entrenched, assholes will remain assholes in either circumstance.

Far preferable that someone of wit & integrity debunks his ramblings in my opinion. I believe that barring him from entry would have no real effect.


Here I disagree - the UK has been very willing, in the past, to attempt to ban individuals accused of espousing extremism from entering the country. And indeed, of being willing to deport such individuals to countries in which there was an incredibly high chance of them being tortured. I don't know about you but I find anyone who would proffer a registry of people based on their religion, or indeed who proposes to ban the entry of people because of their religion, rather extremist. The Washington Post created a rather interesting map, which probably highlights Trump's 'extremism'* better than I can...

To me, if we are content to allow a platform to the likes of Trump on the grounds that censorship is bad, or that his message will make it to idiots anyway, then we have to extend that right to everyone. By extension, the likes of Wadgy Abd El Hamied Mohamed Ghoneim or Safwat Hijazi should also be allowed into the country. The concern I have is that few would suppose the latter proposition (I certainly don't), largely on the basis that they can see the direct harm such allowances would do. The distinction with Trump is less clear in the minds of too many people but no less dangerous, if you ask me.

Like you, I would err towards freedom of expression (although not right of access to a platform) over censorship. At the same time, however, there are plenty of people I am comfortable with being excluded from meaningful debate. Trump is definitely one of those. Put another way (and this is where the asterisk above comes in), debating with Trump is like debating with someone like Anjem Choudary - the entire basis of their argument is irrationality. This is why it works - it is hard to rationally put down a position that is built on an irrational, and thus movable, foundation. Reasonably intelligent and articulate people can easily recognise this but generally, these are not the people Trump is targeting.

*Actually, personally I don't see Trump as much of an extremist at all but, in fact, just incredibly opportunistic. Put another way, I don't believe for a second that he actually holds the beliefs he claims he does. It seems most have forgotten the time he was a pro-choice Democrat... In that regard, I find him probably all the more dangerous than someone with a settled set of core values because it would suggest that there is literally nothing Trump will not say or do in order to get what he wants.

Snipe Watson wrote:Banning Trump would be rediculious. He doesn't need to be in the UK to appeal to Willie Frazer, UK racists and assorted other mad ejits who shout at the television. Banning him would only play into his agenda.


On this I disagree - as with the above examples, it's sort of like saying, "Well, people can get radicalised on their own using the internet..." Whether banning him or not would play into his agenda should not be relevant to the decision that is taken.

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:29 pm
by BR
I'm supporting Trump in his campaign.

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:35 pm
by BaggyTrousers
BR wrote:I'm supporting Trump in his campaign.


Which one?

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:50 pm
by BR
BaggyTrousers wrote:
BR wrote:I'm supporting Trump in his campaign.


Which one?

Donald ;)

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:47 pm
by Bart S
So much noise being made about Trump because he is high profile. His policy on islam is frankly flawed, whether people agree with the sentiment or not and even when asked about it in practice it completely unravels. For example, asking someone when they come into the country whether they are a muslim. The law abiding ones will say yes and the evil maniac terrorists will say no, even if they are. Also, whilst there has been lot of talk about migrants, the vast majority of thise involved seem to have well established roots in the west. One of the US couple was born in the US iirc, plus we have seen this ti be the case in france and belgium.

I personally find Trump less of a threat, even if somehow he got elected. To me he is most interested in whatever serves him and his aims best, rather than some terrible ideology. If some wealthy middle eastern investor was willing to fund one of his projects i bet he would happily take the money.

I'm a lot more concerned about hate oreachers and the like visiting than people in the uk becoming right win zealots on the back of listening to Donald Trump. To most people in the uk he is a bit of a joke and inreally don't see him being an inspiration to many people.

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:25 am
by Neil F
Bart; the concern I have about Trump isn't the thought of him winning over idiots with extremist views, per se, but rather that his behaviour and that of his lackeys pose quite a clear risk to further radicalisation within our own societies. Whether real or perceived, social and economic marginalisation is a strong correlate of individual radicalisation, certainly in Europe, which you rightly point to in your own post. People like Trump can only encourage such feelings amongst those who may already have notions of marginalisation. To me, that is just as dangerous, if not more so, than hate preachers.

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:33 pm
by Snipe Watson
Damned if you do and damned if you don't Neil. Trump is a problem and no matter what you decide to do there is going to be a downside.

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:05 pm
by HwoodMike2umate
Only one week to go before it all kicks off in IOWA so get reading ---- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -know.html

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:08 pm
by Rooster
Fecks not found for the greatest non democratic democracy in the world

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:08 pm
by namron
Rooster wrote:Fecks not found for the greatest non democratic democracy in the world



Agreed . What a choice they have, Monsanto Clinton or Blow your own Trumpet. Frontmen for the real string pullers. (Although I do prefer Trump >6shooter)

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:19 pm
by Russ
There's a snuke in her snizz

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:05 pm
by Snipe Watson
Rooster wrote:Fecks not found for the greatest non democratic democracy in the world

C'mon Rooster, it's gonna be quare craic watching the GOPs if comb-over wins the nomination.

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:16 pm
by big mervyn
Snipe Watson wrote:
Rooster wrote:Fecks not found for the greatest non democratic democracy in the world

C'mon Rooster, it's gonna be quare craic watching the GOPs if comb-over wins the nomination.

Aye, and if Sarah Palin was to be his running mate, it would be as good as it gets.

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:14 pm
by scrum5
Thon cow Clinton ain't any better.....

Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:40 pm
by big mervyn
scrum5 wrote:Thon cow Clinton ain't any better.....

I'm not banging her drum or anything, but I think she'd be a lot better.