USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby BR » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:17 pm

BaggyTrousers wrote:
BR wrote:
BaggyTrousers wrote:I've always struggled to understand how lawmakers find it so difficult to make a cogent argument with the wording and every arsehole's "precis version", to-wit, "the right to bear arms",



To be fair, Baggy. They pretty much say the same thing.

"the right to bear arms"



"the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".


There you go using the short version twice, no word of how these armed men shall form a well-regulated militia for the defence of the state then?

When you only use a small part of the 2nd amendment you sing the song of the NRA, they only want to listen to the part about the right to bear arms.


The problem is that when we do as you ask and read the English language of - "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" - what it actually says is that the right to bear arms is a prerequisite of ensuring a well-regulated militia; not that the militia us a requirement for the right to bear arms.

The need for a militia is the reason the right exists not vice versa. The Constitution is not impacted by the phrase about militia, only the phrase about not infringing the right.

Now it would be better if the forefathers had said 'the right to keep and bear arms as part of a well regulated militia shall not be infringed,' but that isn't what they wrote. So while I imagine there are members of the NRA who struggle with their ability to read English*, they and the Supreme Court seem to have managed it perfectly well on this occasion. Shame - but there you have it.

* I also know several gun owning Mericans who speak our language better than most locyals.
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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby Dave » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:17 pm

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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby Cap'n Grumpy » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:29 pm

BR wrote:..... - "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" - what it actually says is that the right to bear arms is a prerequisite of ensuring a well-regulated militia; not that the militia us a requirement for the right to bear arms.

The counter argument to that would be that as the (apparently necessary) well regulated militia is no longer in existence (and therefore not really necessary now due to the passage of time), nor should there be any right for the people to bear arms.

At the time the 2nd amendment was framed, every adult male was a member of the militia and could be called upon in time of need. That is no longer the case.

In effect the role of the militia has been taken over by the National Guard of which only some citizens are members (or reservists) and the NG is quite well armed in itself and doesn't nor shouldn't be required to call on well armed civilians for help.
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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby BR » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:17 am

Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
BR wrote:..... - "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" - what it actually says is that the right to bear arms is a prerequisite of ensuring a well-regulated militia; not that the militia us a requirement for the right to bear arms.

The counter argument to that would be that as the (apparently necessary) well regulated militia is no longer in existence (and therefore not really necessary now due to the passage of time), nor should there be any right for the people to bear arms.

At the time the 2nd amendment was framed, every adult male was a member of the militia and could be called upon in time of need. That is no longer the case.

In effect the role of the militia has been taken over by the National Guard of which only some citizens are members (or reservists) and the NG is quite well armed in itself and doesn't nor shouldn't be required to call on well armed civilians for help.

Pretty sure there are still plenty of militia in the US, how well-regulated they are is a matter of opinion. (IMHO -hardly at all)

However the 2nd amendment simply provides the environment for these militia to be (re)formed by ensuring that the individual members have access to whatever flintlocks they may feel necessary.

If you want serious gun control (and most of us probably do) - you need to change (rather than deliberately misinterpret) the 2nd amendment. Good luck with that.

Haven't really been keeping up to speed with this latest murder spree in TX, but I assume the gun lobby are now pointing to it as justification of their stance - 'Gunman stopped by armed citizen,' type thing.
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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby Dave » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:20 am

This mean the RA can have their guns back?
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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby BaggyTrousers » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:50 am

Just back in, and I suppose that Grumps has said more or less what I would have. Further, I accept that it was me who spoke of it in terms of the English language.

I suppose the simplest way of describing the 2nd Amendment, is that it is mightily in need of amendment. As I understand it the first 10 amendments for "The Bill of Rights" of the US constitution, there have subsequently been another 17, one of which was to repeal the amendment regarding prohibition.

Again as I understand it other amendments have modified some of the first 10, so on the face of it, whilst it requires legislation there is no earthly reason why the 2nd Amendment should remain a holy cow........... other than the NRA & gun lobby in general.

Caught a bit of the 10 o'clock news with yet another Idiot proclaiming guns don't kill people. If I could just be licenced to kill I suspect I could convince him otherwise or the fecker would die of sudden lead poisoning.

NB When I say just back in that was about 90 minutes ago, I got distracted before posting :lol:
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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby BaggyTrousers » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:55 am

BR wrote:endment. Good luck with that.

Haven't really been keeping up to speed with this latest murder spree in TX, but I assume the gun lobby are now pointing to it as justification of their stance - 'Gunman stopped by armed citizen,' type thing.


I have no evidence to base this upon and no sympathy whatsoever for the perp, but it really sounds as if a guy with a gun rounded up a posse and went after and dispensed Texas justice to the murderous piece of shyte. The shooter will never be charged .............either of them.
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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby BR » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:14 am

BaggyTrousers wrote:
BR wrote:endment. Good luck with that.

Haven't really been keeping up to speed with this latest murder spree in TX, but I assume the gun lobby are now pointing to it as justification of their stance - 'Gunman stopped by armed citizen,' type thing.


I have no evidence to base this upon and no sympathy whatsoever for the perp, but it really sounds as if a guy with a gun rounded up a posse and went after and dispensed Texas justice to the murderous piece of shyte. The shooter will never be charged .............either of them.

I think I read that it may have been the 'armed citizen' engaging with the 'deranged individual' which caused the latter to flee the scene.
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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby Rooster » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:30 am

BR wrote:
BaggyTrousers wrote:
BR wrote:endment. Good luck with that.

Haven't really been keeping up to speed with this latest murder spree in TX, but I assume the gun lobby are now pointing to it as justification of their stance - 'Gunman stopped by armed citizen,' type thing.


I have no evidence to base this upon and no sympathy whatsoever for the perp, but it really sounds as if a guy with a gun rounded up a posse and went after and dispensed Texas justice to the murderous piece of shyte. The shooter will never be charged .............either of them.

I think I read that it may have been the 'armed citizen' engaging with the 'deranged individual' which caused the latter to flee the scene.
Sounds like actually the first time someone has fired back at one of these attackers despite all the guns they have

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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby Tender » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:21 am

Mercans shooting Mercans in Merca. Let them tear away.
They fecked up their own Country and have been trying to feck the rest of the world since they freed themselves from the yoke of the Tax dodging British Royalty.
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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby Cap'n Grumpy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:35 am

Russ wrote:I believe this disgraced Marine did not get his guns legally and was in fact denied when he applied for a permit

So gun control worked

BTW- I forgot to add:

Do you know he got his guns illegally Russ?

Just because he didn't get them from a gun shop doesn't mean he got them illegally.

Even in those states that have some sort of regulation which requires a permit to own, buy or otherwise lay hands on a gun, that only applies to sales from gunshops.

A gun shop may have refused to sell him a gun or guns, but it is still perfectly legal for individuals to buy and sell guns in private transactions with no permits, checks or licensing required whatsoever.

So, gun shop refuses to sell a nutter a rifle, -go buy one legally* from a private individual.

*Now there are some individuals who are barred from owning guns due to previous behaviour or whatever, but in a private sale, there is no onus on the seller to ask or check that. I.E. The seller has broken no laws by selling. The purchaser has broken no laws by buying, but by taking possession, he has broken the prohibition put on him if such exists.
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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby Russ » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:43 am

Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Russ wrote:I believe this disgraced Marine did not get his guns legally and was in fact denied when he applied for a permit

So gun control worked

BTW- I forgot to add:

Do you know he got his guns illegally Russ?

Just because he didn't get them from a gun shop doesn't mean he got them illegally.

Even in those states that have some sort of regulation which requires a permit to own, buy or otherwise lay hands on a gun, that only applies to sales from gunshops.

A gun shop may have refused to sell him a gun or guns, but it is still perfectly legal for individuals to buy and sell guns in private transactions with no permits, checks or licensing required whatsoever.

So, gun shop refuses to sell a nutter a rifle, -go buy one legally* from a private individual.

*Now there are some individuals who are barred from owning guns due to previous behaviour or whatever, but in a private sale, there is no onus on the seller to ask or check that. I.E. The seller has broken no laws by selling. The purchaser has broken no laws by buying, but by taking possession, he has broken the prohibition put on him if such exists.
My source (CNBC) has lied
Turns out the twunt had a licence and bought them from a shop

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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby Rooster » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:11 pm

Far too easy to buy heavy calibre semi automatic rifles over there, probably a serious number of nutters armed like a private one man army. Far more difficult here to buy even a small gauge rifle and anything on centre fire rounds is notoriously difficult to purchase without multiple checks on the purchaser and reasons for purchase.

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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby BR » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:09 pm

Russ wrote:
Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Russ wrote:I believe this disgraced Marine did not get his guns legally and was in fact denied when he applied for a permit

So gun control worked

BTW- I forgot to add:

Do you know he got his guns illegally Russ?

Just because he didn't get them from a gun shop doesn't mean he got them illegally.

Even in those states that have some sort of regulation which requires a permit to own, buy or otherwise lay hands on a gun, that only applies to sales from gunshops.

A gun shop may have refused to sell him a gun or guns, but it is still perfectly legal for individuals to buy and sell guns in private transactions with no permits, checks or licensing required whatsoever.

So, gun shop refuses to sell a nutter a rifle, -go buy one legally* from a private individual.

*Now there are some individuals who are barred from owning guns due to previous behaviour or whatever, but in a private sale, there is no onus on the seller to ask or check that. I.E. The seller has broken no laws by selling. The purchaser has broken no laws by buying, but by taking possession, he has broken the prohibition put on him if such exists.
My source (CNBC) has lied
Turns out the twunt had a licence and bought them from a shop

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I believe he did not have a licence - that had been denied to him. However he did not require one. The purchases he made only required a check to be done through the federal system. Since the Airforce had not updated his domestic violence conviction, he passed the check.
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Re: USA Presidential Primaries 2016 - its all here.

Postby Shan » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:21 pm

Meanwhile some Fox News presenter has said that a church is the best place to be shot as you would be close to Jesus. I think I'd prefer to be closer to a surgeon but anyway...
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