Fibber Joe Must go

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againstthehead
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by againstthehead »

Snipe Watson wrote:
BuckRogers wrote:I think we are largely in agreement BT. The cave thing is one we will have to agree to disagree on, obviously I'd love nothing more than Cave to make hay in the next two months and make himself the only viable option at 13 come the 6N but he's on the back foot if this World Cup is anything to go by.

I am hoping he and McCloskey will do serious damage if our pack can give them some ball.
I don't understand the Cave thing. For Ulster he is a legendary performer, but I have never been convinced by him in green. What is it, does he try too hard? Is it just a step up too far? Has he developed a mental block? It's a total mystery to me.
A legendary performer? I think that's a bit OTT snipe. A very very solid player and an integral part of the backline but I wouldn't say he's a legendary performer by any stretch. Struggling to think of too many in the current set-up. Ruan and Besty. Henderson hopefully will be one day.

Quite ironic that when Jihad is unavailable that the defense in the wider channels goes to tom kite.... Such an under-rated player on this forum.
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Russ
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by Russ »

againstthehead wrote:
Snipe Watson wrote:
BuckRogers wrote:I think we are largely in agreement BT. The cave thing is one we will have to agree to disagree on, obviously I'd love nothing more than Cave to make hay in the next two months and make himself the only viable option at 13 come the 6N but he's on the back foot if this World Cup is anything to go by.

I am hoping he and McCloskey will do serious damage if our pack can give them some ball.
I don't understand the Cave thing. For Ulster he is a legendary performer, but I have never been convinced by him in green. What is it, does he try too hard? Is it just a step up too far? Has he developed a mental block? It's a total mystery to me.
A legendary performer? I think that's a bit OTT snipe. A very very solid player and an integral part of the backline but I wouldn't say he's a legendary performer by any stretch. Struggling to think of too many in the current set-up. Ruan and Besty. Henderson hopefully will be one day.

Quite ironic that when Jihad is unavailable that the defense in the wider channels goes to tom kite.... Such an under-rated player on this forum.
It's not great when Jihad is there either but he can play that passive drift system as he is so good at side on tackles
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BaggyTrousers
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

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Snipe Watson wrote:
BuckRogers wrote:I think we are largely in agreement BT. The cave thing is one we will have to agree to disagree on, obviously I'd love nothing more than Cave to make hay in the next two months and make himself the only viable option at 13 come the 6N but he's on the back foot if this World Cup is anything to go by.

I am hoping he and McCloskey will do serious damage if our pack can give them some ball.
I don't understand the Cave thing. For Ulster he is a legendary performer, but I have never been convinced by him in green. What is it, does he try too hard? Is it just a step up too far? Has he developed a mental block? It's a total mystery to me.
FFS Snipe, getting selected would be a start. :duh:

I hold out as few as no hopes for Cave, or Jackson for that matter, Quiff has now been installed as next greatest thing despite a myriad of flaws. As for Cave, selected to cover broken centres, he was given the full 80 in the most/2nd most meaningless game, had Quiff at his greedy best & Zebrother popping up everywhere he shouldn't have been, getting in the way. (Interesting that Zebo was also permanently ditched after that self-aggrandizing attempt at a performance)

It was instructive that when Paddy Jackson came on suddenly a few passing moves & linebreaks broke out. Clearly not Fibberball so neither Jackson nor Cave saw a minute of play thereafter.

That FibberJose, the "new Deccie", picked multiple times failed at centre, Keet, who was in great form on the wing, the one thing you knew for certain was that the solidity that either Payne or Cave bring to 13 was marked absent.

Look, I could go on, but I've said it all before and significantly before FibberJose became the latest failed Irish RWC coach, I have issues with his Mexicocentric selection and some of his selection in general, I revere his ability to get the best out of the side he selects, but I don't go with quite a few of his selections. HIs replacement call ups were simply a holiday for a few old mates, disgraceful.

Still, win the next 6Ns playing the same dull game & he will be right back on track for sainted Paddyhood.

Kiwi ballix.
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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Jackie Brown
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by Jackie Brown »

Snipe Watson wrote:
BuckRogers wrote:I think we are largely in agreement BT. The cave thing is one we will have to agree to disagree on, obviously I'd love nothing more than Cave to make hay in the next two months and make himself the only viable option at 13 come the 6N but he's on the back foot if this World Cup is anything to go by.

I am hoping he and McCloskey will do serious damage if our pack can give them some ball.
I don't understand the Cave thing. For Ulster he is a legendary performer, but I have never been convinced by him in green. What is it, does he try too hard? Is it just a step up too far? Has he developed a mental block? It's a total mystery to me.
Has he ever been given a fair chance to bed himself in like others are? How many consecutive games has he played in green?
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Snipe Watson
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by Snipe Watson »

Jackie Brown wrote:
Snipe Watson wrote:
BuckRogers wrote:I think we are largely in agreement BT. The cave thing is one we will have to agree to disagree on, obviously I'd love nothing more than Cave to make hay in the next two months and make himself the only viable option at 13 come the 6N but he's on the back foot if this World Cup is anything to go by.

I am hoping he and McCloskey will do serious damage if our pack can give them some ball.
I don't understand the Cave thing. For Ulster he is a legendary performer, but I have never been convinced by him in green. What is it, does he try too hard? Is it just a step up too far? Has he developed a mental block? It's a total mystery to me.
Has he ever been given a fair chance to bed himself in like others are? How many consecutive games has he played in green?
Fair point.
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Jackie Brown
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by Jackie Brown »

Russ wrote:
againstthehead wrote:
Snipe Watson wrote:
BuckRogers wrote:I think we are largely in agreement BT. The cave thing is one we will have to agree to disagree on, obviously I'd love nothing more than Cave to make hay in the next two months and make himself the only viable option at 13 come the 6N but he's on the back foot if this World Cup is anything to go by.

I am hoping he and McCloskey will do serious damage if our pack can give them some ball.
I don't understand the Cave thing. For Ulster he is a legendary performer, but I have never been convinced by him in green. What is it, does he try too hard? Is it just a step up too far? Has he developed a mental block? It's a total mystery to me.
A legendary performer? I think that's a bit OTT snipe. A very very solid player and an integral part of the backline but I wouldn't say he's a legendary performer by any stretch. Struggling to think of too many in the current set-up. Ruan and Besty. Henderson hopefully will be one day.

Quite ironic that when Jihad is unavailable that the defense in the wider channels goes to tom kite.... Such an under-rated player on this forum.
It's not great when Jihad is there either but he can play that passive drift system as he is so good at side on tackles
Don't destroy his logical fallacy!
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Neil F
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by Neil F »

Snipe Watson wrote:I don't understand the Cave thing. For Ulster he is a legendary performer, but I have never been convinced by him in green. What is it, does he try too hard? Is it just a step up too far? Has he developed a mental block? It's a total mystery to me.
He's not the only one who has had this problem, though - there are plenty of guys in recent years who have seemed to have the same problem. Tom Court is probably the obvious example; but Andrew Trimble looked like this for much of his international career. The likes of Reddan, Jennings and Cullen are similar examples from Leinster in the last few years and let's not forget Quinny. Like you, I've never been convinced by Cave in green (nor was I by Tom Court, incidentally, or any of the other players named, with the exception of Trimble in the last couple of seasons). I wonder if it's part of the territory of (probably) being good enough to play international rugby to a passable standard but of always having someone better (or at least preferred) standing in your way? Jackie is probably right about bedding in - if you're never first choice, it's probably a lot harder to look good when you come into play a game that was designed around someone else's attributes. But perhaps the most obvious reason is that Cave hasn't had a chance to bed in because there is a better player in the same position. With a chance to bed in, Cave should be preferred to Earls (he probably should be, anyway, though) but I'm not sure he should be preferred to Payne.
Jackie Brown wrote:Has he ever been given a fair chance to bed himself in like others are? How many consecutive games has he played in green?
I'm not sure 'fair' is the right word as it implies some sort of anti-Cave bias in selection but I see where you're coming from. At the same time, there are plenty of other Ireland players who've had bit part roles, at least in more recent years, and have come in and immediately put their hands up (Earls in the warm-ups, for example, is a perfect image of this; even Shan didn't want Earls going before that Wales game, if I remember correctly... Trimble in the 2014 Six Nations is another example). I agree with the logic that if a player gets an extended run in a team, he'll look a lot better but I don't think that, alone, explains Cave's general lack of impact in green. It sort of ignores the question about what Cave hasn't been given a chance to bed in - and that, I think, is simply to do with Payne being better (at least for Ireland) and the likes of Earls having done a better job in the past when they're called upon at short notice.
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by Spiffsson »

The media and spin doctors, the sooth sayers and the readers of pigeons' entrails have done their job well.
Let the beatification of St. Jared The Good Payne continue as the essential threequarter without whom the Ireland back line cannot function.
Oh ye of little faith - believe what you are told, not what you see.
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by BuckRogers »

Spiffsson wrote:The media and spin doctors, the sooth sayers and the readers of pigeons' entrails have done their job well.
Let the beatification of St. Jared The Good Payne continue as the essential threequarter without whom the Ireland back line cannot function.
Oh ye of little faith - believe what you are told, not what you see.
Rum'ns punctuation and grammar is hard to digest but that's just fantasist sh1te. Spin doctors? Sooth Sayers?

Payne's a good player. IMO Cave is also a good player. In Schmidt's mind Payne is a better player. Before that Kidney felt BOD and Earls were better players.

Two coaches. Double HEC winners, two 6N and a Grand Slam between them. They might just know a thing or two that we don't.

I'm not deriding Cave here but this continual weeping and gnashing of teeth about anyone in Cave's path to the Irish 13 jersey is getting ever more nauseating. All the more so when it's deriding another Ulster player who, whilst I would prefer to be starting at 15 ahead of Non-Tackle Brother 1, is still a good 13 and has shown that against all comers.

As I said in another thread or possibly in this one DC now has 8-10 weeks to lay down a marker and make himself undroppable and show that he and McCloskey are the centre pairing Ulster need moving forward and Payne can return to 15 instead of Lulu and perhaps Wasps or someone will do us a favour and sign Piatau and then we sign another baby eating backrower and that, ladies and gentlemen, is blisstonia.
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by rumncoke »

All this cave has x weeks to prove himself --BUllsh1t3 --- CAVE has played in the centre for years and to the powers who select has not proved himself --- the Idea that Pro 12 is the same as International Rugby is a very flawed preception
there is a very large difference in standard somewhat similar to the difference between AIL and Pro 12.

That said I have never fancied Earls as a centre either in attack or defence . In attack he is inspired by the white line and becomes greedy and while his speed takes through a gap it effects his passing very few players can pass a ball well at speed.

The pass is either forward or fails to go to hand and or mis-timed.

In defence his tackle technique frequently results injury because he charges at speed directly at his opposite number attempting head on tackles or mis times the charge and creates a gap between 12 and 13 .

Thus the pace which makes him the player of choice becomes a liability.

The fact of course remains while it is easy to identify the Earls/ Kearney weakness against the Pumas but the real weakness was the lack of cover defence which the backrow failed to provide which left ireland exposed wide.
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Spiffsson
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

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BuckRogers wrote:
Spiffsson wrote:The media and spin doctors, the sooth sayers and the readers of pigeons' entrails have done their job well.
Let the beatification of St. Jared The Good Payne continue as the essential threequarter without whom the Ireland back line cannot function.
Oh ye of little faith - believe what you are told, not what you see.
Rum'ns punctuation and grammar is hard to digest but that's just fantasist sh1te. Spin doctors? Sooth Sayers?

Payne's a good player. IMO Cave is also a good player. In Schmidt's mind Payne is a better player. Before that Kidney felt BOD and Earls were better players.

Two coaches. Double HEC winners, two 6N and a Grand Slam between them. They might just know a thing or two that we don't.

I'm not deriding Cave here but this continual weeping and gnashing of teeth about anyone in Cave's path to the Irish 13 jersey is getting ever more nauseating. All the more so when it's deriding another Ulster player who, whilst I would prefer to be starting at 15 ahead of Non-Tackle Brother 1, is still a good 13 and has shown that against all comers.

As I said in another thread or possibly in this one DC now has 8-10 weeks to lay down a marker and make himself undroppable and show that he and McCloskey are the centre pairing Ulster need moving forward and Payne can return to 15 instead of Lulu and perhaps Wasps or someone will do us a favour and sign Piatau and then we sign another baby eating backrower and that, ladies and gentlemen, is blisstonia.
It's all about opinions Buck. In my opinion Payne is not really a good player, or perhaps I should say not good enough. He is a workmanlike 13, a competent journeyman, the safe option who does not do much wrong, but never sets a game alight. He may be the best Ireland can find at the moment (though I would disagree) but in my mind he's keeping the slot warm until we can find someone of real international class, or move Henshaw to 13 where he belongs. This assessment is based on what I see of Payne per se, and not on comparison with any other player, Darren Cave included, and not on the opinons of rugby gurus and media pundits who want to tell me what to think. You may call this deriding him if you like. I just call it an opinion. Payne may improve, of course, if he keeps getting picked. He's already 30 or so, so I don't know how many years he may be around the squad.
And yes - the "fantasist shyte" I have posted does obviously involve a little over-the-top poetic licence just to make a point and attempt to keep it all a bit lighthearted (clearly failed!). I didn't hear too much generous praise of Payne on these boards before the utterances of such as BOD and Shaggyy a couple of weeks ago, who explained to the punters just how special and essential he is, and how his absence explains the inability of a poor set of Irish backs to tackle their opposie numbers.
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againstthehead
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by againstthehead »

BuckRogers wrote:
Spiffsson wrote:The media and spin doctors, the sooth sayers and the readers of pigeons' entrails have done their job well.
Let the beatification of St. Jared The Good Payne continue as the essential threequarter without whom the Ireland back line cannot function.
Oh ye of little faith - believe what you are told, not what you see.
Rum'ns punctuation and grammar is hard to digest but that's just fantasist sh1te. Spin doctors? Sooth Sayers?

Payne's a good player. IMO Cave is also a good player. In Schmidt's mind Payne is a better player. Before that Kidney felt BOD and Earls were better players.

Two coaches. Double HEC winners, two 6N and a Grand Slam between them. They might just know a thing or two that we don't.

I'm not deriding Cave here but this continual weeping and gnashing of teeth about anyone in Cave's path to the Irish 13 jersey is getting ever more nauseating. All the more so when it's deriding another Ulster player who, whilst I would prefer to be starting at 15 ahead of Non-Tackle Brother 1, is still a good 13 and has shown that against all comers.

As I said in another thread or possibly in this one DC now has 8-10 weeks to lay down a marker and make himself undroppable and show that he and McCloskey are the centre pairing Ulster need moving forward and Payne can return to 15 instead of Lulu and perhaps Wasps or someone will do us a favour and sign Piatau and then we sign another baby eating backrower and that, ladies and gentlemen, is blisstonia.
I concur Buck. I suspect the issue is that Jared is a 'plastic paddy', whilst Caveman is the real deal. Personally I was pretty surprised that a 13 could be found for Ireland that still provided a successful side. Very big boots to fill and in many ways a thankless task but Jared has done exceptionally well to hold that place down.
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by bazzaj »

I can save you all this time and effort by suggesting McCloskey and Henshaw should be Irelands future centre pairing.
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Snipe Watson
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by Snipe Watson »

bazzaj wrote:I can save you all this time and effort by suggesting McCloskey and Henshaw should be Irelands future centre pairing.
If you want a play maker at 12, McCloskey is not your man. Olding may well be.
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Re: Fibber Joe Must go

Post by BaggyTrousers »

Neil F wrote:
Jackie Brown wrote:Has he ever been given a fair chance to bed himself in like others are? How many consecutive games has he played in green?
I'm not sure 'fair' is the right word as it implies some sort of anti-Cave bias in selection but I see where you're coming from.
Neil, tell me you haven't been watching Ireland in the World Cup?

It's been yet another example of the Fibber saying one thing and doing the opposite.

That apart, I'd be amazed if Cave has not enjoyed his time over recent months, handsomely remunerated by all accounts, golf with McIlroy in the morning, helicopter to meet Phil and Betty in the afternoon, meeting Usain Bolt one week, dinner with the legendary Henry Sheflin, A P McCoy, Big Sonia and others the next. Sure he'd have wanted not to be ignored but sure......
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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