Gilroy

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Spiffsson
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Gilroy

Post by Spiffsson »

Poor old Gilly has hardly had a mention since the RWC training squad got together. So I thought I'd air a little rant about his case.
He was in great form at the end of the season, was arguably the best wing in the Pro 12, and scored some very good tries showing speed, footwork, determination and strenth. His defence was pretty good too. Going into training camp you woud would certainly have rated him ahead of Fitz/Daverage/Zebo at least.
Joe has now had two games to assess the outsiders. Presumably, in the remaining warmups, selection will reflect more closely the chosen few. This suggests that, since Gilroy has not had a run up to now, even from the bench, he will not get one at all. WTF is going on here? How can Joe trot out a duffer like Fitzgerald (and even talk him up) and totally ignore the claims of Gilly? Obviously he knows something that we don't and maybe Gilly is not doing it in training. But training is not matchday.
Maybe Joe will surprise us all and name him on the bench for one of the final warmups, but it looks almost certain that he won't and it's toodle pip Gilly. He is not on the list of any fan or pundit to make the cut.I know that most of the regulars here will take the tack that that's good for Ulster, and it is. But it's not good for Gilroy and I feel sorry for the lad that he didn't get a chance to show his stuff.
As for Darren Cave ........................
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Neil F
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Re: Gilroy

Post by Neil F »

Spiff; I think you made some excellent points in the Scotland thread about Schmidt's approach but I fear I must disagree with you on Gilroy. That said, I am aware that I am putting my neck on the line by doing so here - I can almost hear the lighting of torches and the sharpening of pitchforks as I type this...

Gilroy finished the season strongly, in attack at least. And yes, he scored a lot of tries, some of them rather spectacular but we shouldn't let this mask what was, in reality, something of a mixed bag of a season. At the start of the season, Gilroy's indecision and general lack of effectiveness reminded me a lot more of the Andy Maxwell that Ulster offloaded onto Edinburgh than the next Shane Williams. That improved throughout the season, I don't think his defending did. He is still frequently caught out of position and, at times, looked incredibly weak and / or lazy in the tackle. The number of flapped arms I saw from him this season, for example, was hugely disappointing. This also go better throughout the season but not enough to make me think that he'd be much more than a liability in defence on the international stage. There is significant room for improvement from Gilroy in this area; he is a talented player for whom I have much respect and I hope he does it because he has the potential to be a huge attacking asset. That said, for now, I think Ulster is the best place for him to do it.

I have always thought that try return (taken in isolation, at least) is far from the best way of analysing a winger's impact or quality, particularly when it comes to tries in the Pro12. Tim Visser, I think, is a great example of how scoring a hatload of tries in the league doesn't necessarily make one effective in attack in the international game. I agree that it's hard to judge Gilroy in this area because we've barely seen him but I presume Schmidt has and, at this point, does not view the trade-off between what Gilroy offers going forward relative to the issues in his game elsewhere favourably. In selecting 'exciting' players like Gilroy in international rugby, I think one must hedge ones bets - the question, really, is about whether or not Gilroy offers so much more going forward than the others do that one can ignore this.

That said, I see where you're coming from, particularly when comparing him to Luke Fitzgerald. It's as simple as this - Fitzgerald shouldn't be in the mix. The others, however, I would argue offer at least as much as Gilroy. Don't get me wrong, I want to see Gilroy doing well but I don't think this is as great an injustice you present it. Perhaps Gilroy has the right to be miffed (not least in terms of Fitzgerald's inclusion) but I fear the mix of overestimating Gilroy's all-round game and of underestimating that of others make some fans perceive that he should be given chances that I'm not entirely convinced he has - yet - earned.
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mikerob
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Re: Gilroy

Post by mikerob »

On the point about training, we don't know what goes on during training and yes, just because a player is brilliant during training doesn't mean they will be brilliant during a game.

However equally, if a player isn't performing during training, you can't blame the coach for taking an approach of "well if he can't get it right in training, he won't get it right in a game either", particularly if there are other players who are getting it right (not that I have a clue of the reasons why Gilroy hasn't featured)
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Spiffsson
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Re: Gilroy

Post by Spiffsson »

I won't belabour the point Neil. I agree that Gilroy was not in good form at the start of the season, but by the end, he was playing very well and possibly the "form" wing in Ireland (and not just measured on scoring fancy tries.) Players do progress in their careers, sometimes by leaps and bounds and sometimes gradually (they can also not progress, or regress). I feel he matured a lot and was assessing him on recent -, not earlier form. Presumably Joe sees something in him or else he would not be in the squad. Obviously, at present, he does not see enough.
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Shan
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Re: Gilroy

Post by Shan »

He needs more Spiff. I'd say Joe would probably not be hugely impressed with his ability to switch off during games or run up the blind alleys he sometimes does. I think most Ulster folk would see Trimble and Bowe as their best wingers and would prefer to see them lining up for the major games.

However I understand your point too. When you see guys like Fitz getting their chance it is hard to see why Gilroy should not at least get a chance. Fitz also runs up blind alleys at times like Gilroy. Indeed one could easily argue that Gilroy is far more effective offensively because at least he knows where the try line is even if he sometimes runs through a few roundabouts to get there but at least he does get there a lot of the time. :D Defensively and in terms of work rate for the team Fitz is well ahead which is why Joe wants to keep him in the frame.
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Re: Gilroy

Post by againstthehead »

I think the Irish backline has to be Marshall, Jackson, Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Bowe and Gilroy. Anything else and Joe is playing his fiddle to the tune of Leinster and Munster.
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Russ
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Re: Gilroy

Post by Russ »

againstthehead wrote:I think the Irish backline has to be Marshall, Jackson, Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Bowe and Gilroy. Anything else and Joe is playing his fiddle to the tune of Leinster and Munster.
Utter guff

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Kofi Annan
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Re: Gilroy

Post by Kofi Annan »

Is Zebo better than Gilroy :scratch:

Ps. Gilly , Gilly for fecksake spiffy old chap knock this Nicky name Shiite on the head

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Russ
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Re: Gilroy

Post by Russ »

Zebo is not in Gilroys league

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BaggyTrousers
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Re: Gilroy

Post by BaggyTrousers »

The outrage I feel reading these comments is so mild that I can barely be bothered typing something.

However one must do one's duty so........

I am offended that the straightforward calumny of the wunderkinds from Mexico constantly being advantaged by the ties and affections of their former coach FibberJoe to the disadvantage of better players draws barely draws mention.

Most of you dimwits just sing along with the choir that Fibber can do no wrong >flatnote , you are like a flock of modestly cross sheep, following the great leader wherever he goes, whatever he says, for he must be right.

Well I've said it before, I don't trust FibberJoe on selection, whilst entirely expecting him to get the selected team to perform, almost every time but not always - I sight the meek surrender in Cardiff a few months back.

Many or most of you have either amnesia or are excessively stupid, such as Agen-le-tete whose infantile post I refuse to comment on. >EW Gilroy has become a very decent defender, it's an area he has had to improve to prevent Darren Cave giving him constant orders and bollickings.

Some of the FibberJoe fanclub here have stated themselves that the appallingly stupid and incapable Fitzgerald being given the special consideration Mexicans get from FibberJoe is simply ludicrous, unjustifiable, however it is established fact, FibberJoe has a hardon for Luke, probably on the insistence on the malign smirker, his former captain and a man who openly despises yee Nordies.

If they were writing the bible now, the famous passage would now read, Its easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a Nordiebastard to get a fair shake from FibberJoe. true fact.

Now this frigging car isn't going to drive itself to Granada, I'm off, catch yis later.
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Re: Gilroy

Post by big mervyn »

BaggyTrousers wrote: Now this frigging car isn't going to drive itself to Granada, I'm off, catch yis later.
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Re: Gilroy

Post by bazzaj »

Good speed Bagster in your Granada.

Meek surrender in Cardiff asides Joe has bought himself with the rest of his results enough time to get over a few meaningless friendlies.
Should we fail at the world cup it would only be in the footsteps of every single Irish coach so that won`t be especially enough for me to overly condemn him either.

Joe has his favourites -all coaches do even the very best ones, where no one outside of the camp struggles to figure out why a particular player is included or omitted.
Steve Hansen the current all black coach had Shane Williams running out as a waterboy dismissing him as too small before the penny dropped in 2003.
Neil Back was similarly dismissed as too small at the earlier part of his career
The All Blacks generally selected the steadier Andrew Mertens over the genius of Carlos Spencer as they did with Grant Fox over Frano Botica.
Mavericks like Cipriani, Mike Catt, Dennis Charvet, Austen Healey, Tony Ward, Simpson-Daniel, James Hook and Gavin Henson amongst others have been all been over looked by various coaches despite their abundance of talent whilst steadier options often replace them.

There is always something about the maverick individual that coaches generally dislike and Gilly I would say comes in that category.
The crowds love to see them but that doesn`t tally up with what the coaches are looking for as they tend to like players who do exactly what they are told to do (on and off the field!).
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Re: Gilroy

Post by BuckRogers »

Such a load of self-pitying sop.

The difference between International Rugby and Pro12 is night and day. To even try and compare Gilroy's good form at Pro12 as some sort of reason to include him for Ireland is a nonsense.

I don't buy the BS that Schmidt is somehow openly subjective against Munster/Ulster in favour of the Mexicans.

The reality that until half way through last season Gilroy was a defensive liability. A fast liability but a liability nonetheless. His kicking was average, fielding of high balls mixed and he wasn't physical enough in the tackle. He improved immeasurably as the season wore on and scored some excellent tries but is that enough? Not in my opinion. If he manages to keep one of Trimble or Bowe on the bench for Ulster he'll be taking a big step towards an Irish Jersey.
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Russ
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Re: Gilroy

Post by Russ »

Luke Fitzgerald

No name needs reminded more of than the worst winger in Orish rugby history
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Jackie Brown
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Re: Gilroy

Post by Jackie Brown »

We need consistent players. Luke is consistently dung at every level. Joe knows what he can expect from him.
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