Greatest ever xv

[bazzaj]

The dull season is upon us once again and I saw a debate on another thread between snipe and Baggy about who was the best 9 ever.
It was mentioned that is impossible compare eras and something I have always wondered when comparing players is what exactly is the criteria?
For example if you were selecting a 15 you would want JPR on a wet night in Cardiff but in a sunny spring day in Paris its Blanco every time.

My new criteria is based on the impact the player had on the game, where they were good enough to redefine the way the game is played and left their own stamp on it.
Its not a case of doing something better than the rest but changing peoples perception of what their position entails.
Much the same way as Usain Bolt changed the way people thought sprinters should be, from pocket power rockets to giants with huge stride patterns.

It has made a difference to my thinking.

15-JPR WILLIAMS-Up to his arrival full backs were seen as goal keepers in the last line of defence rather than an attacking threat thinking of the likes of Tom Kiernan and Don Clark before him. JPRs joining in the line was not really seen before as he scored and assisted many tries with his attacking and countering style that set the tone for future 15s to follow

14-JONAH LOMU- There were big wings but none like this who were actually bigger than most forwards and could run as quick and change direction as good as any back. As Will Carling called him a `freak `, in the nicest possible sense of the word.

13-BOD- Redifined the roll of the centre as an auxilary flanker at the break down as well as his attacking ability.

12- DANIE GERBER- South African centre and the first power runner with the physicality to match. A prototype that Sella and Horan would follow.

11- DAVID CAMPESE-Wingers up to that time remained routed to the wing. Campo was the first winger that would appear anywhere on the pitch and roamed freely to create havoc. 64 international tries says it all.

10- BARRY JOHN-There may have been better all round 10s before or since but none who had his impact. First player to goal kick side footed and use tactical kicking to torment full backs. His attacking play was unreal and one of his tour tries in 71 against Wellington (from memory) is my favourite individual try ever. Mate of George Bests which says it all!

9- GARETH EDWARDS-Simply the most complete rugby player in history. Reverse passes, kicking, drop goals, scoring tries tough as teak, he could do the lot.

8-ZINZAN BROOKE- First saw him play against Ulster when he marked the ball straight from the kick off.We all gasped in the crowd and laughed as we had not seen that before from a forward. He then launched the ball into our 22 to our disbelief. He did it later on the prove it was no fluke. A New Zealand coach of mine once said to the forwards that in NZ if a forward kicked the ball a red line went through his name unless his name was Zinzan Brooke.

7-MICHAEL JONES- Up till him 7s were generally seen as harassers and spoilers but this man was an athlete as quick and as skillful as any back. For pound the best player I ever saw.

6-RICHARD HILL- A 6 would traditionally thought of as a big hard hitting enforcer but Hill redifined that role with wrapping in tackles and his work at the break down.A real intelligent player and perhaps the most important player in the English World Cup winning side. Certainly the most underestimated as both the lions and England were nowhere near the same side without him. Between him and George Smith, paved the way for the type of player that Richie McCaw became.

5-JOHN EALES- Showed that 2nd rows could be athletes not just grafters and could goal kick as well! Nicknamed nobody because nobody is perfect.

4-COLIN MEADS- The pine tree was and is the most revered All Black in New Zealand so that will do for me. Hardest man in rugby history and was one of the first true enforcers in the game with a very high skill set.

3-RAY MCLOUGHLIN- Maybe a surprise to most but apparently Ray was way ahead of his time according to players from his generation, in terms of his technical ability. Would have been considered gold dust under these new rules for his knowledge and technical ability of scrummaging.

2-SEAN FITZPATRICK- First try scoring hooker popping up on the wing to create the extra man and hard as nails.Only one contender here.

1-FRAN COTTON- Fierce scrummager and competitor as well as having a skills set that meant he played 7s rugby as well. In 1973 when England defeated the All Blacks the sight of Cotton setting off in his own 22 selling dummies to NZ backs for fun is probably the most incredible sight I have ever seen on a rugby pitch. For that alone he gets a place.

I dont see many debate about 2, 5 or 9 in any criteria but based on my own that is who I would go for.

[BaggyTrousers]

The dull season is upon us once again and I saw a debate on another thread between snipe and Baggy about who was the best 9 ever.
It was mentioned that is impossible compare eras and something I have always wondered when comparing players is what exactly is the criteria?
For example if you were selecting a 15 you would want JPR on a wet night in Cardiff but in a sunny spring day in Paris its Blanco every time.

My new criteria is based on the impact the player had on the game, where they were good enough to redefine the way the game is played and left their own stamp on it.
Its not a case of doing something better than the rest but changing peoples perception of what their position entails.
Much the same way as Usain Bolt changed the way people thought sprinters should be, from pocket power rockets to giants with huge stride patterns.

It has made a difference to my thinking.

15-JPR WILLIAMS-Up to his arrival full backs were seen as goal keepers in the last line of defence rather than an attacking threat thinking of the likes of Tom Kiernan and Don Clark before him. JPRs joining in the line was not really seen before as he scored and assisted many tries with his attacking and countering style that set the tone for future 15s to follow

You fail to mention he was the hardest hitting tackler at 15 ever to draw breath


14-JONAH LOMU- There were big wings but none like this who were actually bigger than most forwards and could run as quick and change direction as good as any back. As Will Carling called him a `freak `, in the nicest possible sense of the word.

Impossible to leave out I suppose but I must say I loved the skilled winger rather than the bludgeon, not that Lomu had no skills of course. Always thought Gerald Davies was the ultimate skilled winger

13-BOD- Redifined the roll of the centre as an auxilary flanker at the break down as well as his attacking ability.

The ultimate centre for his ability to adapt his career following a string of injuries that hit his top pace badly

12- DANIE GERBER- South African centre and the first power runner with the physicality to match. A prototype that Sella and Horan would follow.

Give me CMH Gibson every time, how good would he make BOD look? Gibson's versatility made him perfect for the Lions in their good years when being a Lion was worthwhile. I saw him play 10, 12, 13, 14 or Ireland with equal skill and the nous to do the very different jobs. Gibson, in my mind is the second greatest player I've seen.

11- DAVID CAMPESE-Wingers up to that time remained routed to the wing. Campo was the first winger that would appear anywhere on the pitch and roamed freely to create havoc. 64 international tries says it all.

Only remotely acceptable based on your criteria Jizz, I saw him play one of his greatest games in the RWC 1991 semi-final against the All Blacks & he was the chief architect of Oz's win, lifting the cup the next weekend. I find it hard to look past Bryan Habana.

10- BARRY JOHN-There may have been better all round 10s before or since but none who had his impact. First player to goal kick side footed and use tactical kicking to torment full backs. His attacking play was unreal and one of his tour tries in 71 against Wellington (from memory) is my favourite individual try ever. Mate of George Bests which says it all!

Absolute top man, my brother met him in the Hope Bar in Caaaaaaaaadiff, and on the off chance asked him about tickets, to keep it brief, he promised to return with a couple next day, my bro turned up in hope rather than expectation & BJ produced the 2 tickets. A gent.

That said, I just can't look past Dan Carter as the best all round 10 & a man who brought a consistency of goalkicking never seen before. Also an awesome player & a bit of versatility in that he can do 12 very well.

9- GARETH EDWARDS-Simply the most complete rugby player in history. Reverse passes, kicking, drop goals, scoring tries tough as teak, he could do the lot.

I concur without hesitation, greatest player I've ever seen, just a nudge above Gibson. NB I never saw Kyle play.

8-ZINZAN BROOKE- First saw him play against Ulster when he marked the ball straight from the kick off.We all gasped in the crowd and laughed as we had not seen that before from a forward. He then launched the ball into our 22 to our disbelief. He did it later on the prove it was no fluke. A New Zealand coach of mine once said to the forwards that in NZ if a forward kicked the ball a red line went through his name unless his name was Zinzan Brooke.

A decent player of course, but part circus act, no 8s dropping goals is just wrong, never mind Aussie props doing it. There are so many great 8s, Our own Ken Goodall would have been an utter legend, there was an athlete ahead of his time, sadly all too short. I like Imanol Harinordoquy as an extraordinary skillful 8, Merve the Swerve was probably the first example of the modern 8, Willie Duggan smoked his way trough training but hardly qualifies. Harinordoquy for me.

7-MICHAEL JONES- Up till him 7s were generally seen as harassers and spoilers but this man was an athlete as quick and as skillful as any back. For pound the best player I ever saw.

Legendary, but a chube who let the ABs down on Sundays, I like a player to be available 7 days a week. For all round impact and as importantly longevity I couldn't look past McCaw

6-RICHARD HILL- A 6 would traditionally thought of as a big hard hitting enforcer but Hill redifined that role with wrapping in tackles and his work at the break down.A real intelligent player and perhaps the most important player in the English World Cup winning side. Certainly the most underestimated as both the lions and England were nowhere near the same side without him. Between him and George Smith, paved the way for the type of player that Richie McCaw became.

The glue that made the England world cup winning pack tick, hugely under-rated due to golden boys like Johnny or Lawrence D but the best player in that team.

5-JOHN EALES- Showed that 2nd rows could be athletes not just grafters and could goal kick as well! Nicknamed nobody because nobody is perfect - that is an urban myth, nobody other than the TV clown who coined that ever called him that..

Fine player but my 2nd row would be Matfield & Botha at their best, a superb double act, the artist & the artisan enforcer/workhorse, find POC/DOC but with one part of the double act massively better - sorry Donners you're the poor man's Botha.

4-COLIN MEADS- The pine tree was and is the most revered All Black in New Zealand so that will do for me. Hardest man in rugby history and was one of the first true enforcers in the game with a very high skill set.

Tough man alright & the first to be sent of in international rugby - by an Irishman, Kevin Kelleher. Like Willie-John a wee man compared to this day & age but hard as bejaysus.

3-RAY MCLOUGHLIN- Maybe a surprise to most but apparently Ray was way ahead of his time according to players from his generation, in terms of his technical ability. Would have been considered gold dust under these new rules for his knowledge and technical ability of scrummaging.

Great selection, just perfect, a great innovator. Should have been a long time Irish scrum coach. Wasted

2-SEAN FITZPATRICK- First try scoring hooker popping up on the wing to create the extra man and hard as nails.Only one contender here.

For my money, Fitzy is the 2nd best hooker I've ever seen. Nobody is better than Bismarck du Plessis

1-FRAN COTTON- Fierce scrummager and competitor as well as having a skills set that meant he played 7s rugby as well. In 1973 when England defeated the All Blacks the sight of Cotton setting off in his own 22 selling dummies to NZ backs for fun is probably the most incredible sight I have ever seen on a rugby pitch. For that alone he gets a place.

Clearly Cian Healy

I dont see many debate about 2, 5 or 9 in any criteria but based on my own that is who I would go for.

A decent effort Jizzer, I may even think about it and come up with something different, those were my immediate reactions, feel free to rubbish them, everyone is entitled to opinions - its just that mine mean so much more.

[bazzaj]

Good critique Bagster but when you mention Gerald or Gibson do you think they could have played as sucessfully today where I think most of my select could do?
Gerber would eat them for breakfast to be fair and I remember the look on Dusty Hares face when he showed Gerber the line when England toured there!
He had clearly not seen anything like him in terms of pace and power.
Gibson would have to be a 10 perhaps and Gerald would have to hit the weights in a big way nowadays but they remain two of my favourite players of all time.

You can`t have seen Jonny Wilkinson, Neil Jenkins or Rob Andrew if you are talking about consistancy of goal kicking but I will say Carters performance in the 2nd test against the Lions in 2005 was the greatest individual performance from a back I ever saw.
However none have the nickname `the King` and bear in mind before John it was fullbacks that generally did the kicking along with the odd back rower with the toe of the boot rather than the instep!.

Matfield Botha are the best combination of all time unquestionably but as individuals I would have my pair as they are the originals.
Bismarck and Habana are tremendous players but again cant see what they have done much differently to their predecessors.
Fitz and Campo on the other hand ripped up the manual and redefined their respective positional roles.

I agree with Goodall at 8, but Havigotakey as the best ever??
That I cant have, though maybe its because there are no French in my select?

McCaw I knew was conspicous by his absense but I dont think he has revolutionised the role of a 7 as much as Michael Jones, which was my criteria.
I think he simply took what George Smith was doing and did it even better.
There has been no comparison in my book to Jones before or since and if he had played McCaw I suspect that Richie may have been chasing shadows all day.

Cian Healy I completely forgot.
Of course he is a shoe in.

[Snipe Watson]

Too many amateur era chappies in those teams.
1. Os du Randt
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Karl Hayman
4. Martin Johnston captain
5. John Eales
6. Buck Shelford
7 Michael Jones
8.Zinzan Brooke
9. Joost van der Westhuizen
10.Jonny Wilkinson
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Tim Horan
13. BOD
14. Campo
15. Serge Blanco

[BaggyTrousers]

Too many amateur era chappies in those teams.
1. Os du Randt Paulie Wallace near killed the fat ox, you don't get out much Snipe, highly overrated.
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Karl Hayman
4. Martin Johnston captain
5. John Eales
6. Buck Shelford
7 Michael Jones
8.Zinzan Brooke
9. Joost van der Westhuizen
10.Jonny Wilkinson
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Tim Horan
13. BOD
14. Campo
15. Serge Blanco

You know what? I can't be bothered at this hour.

Joost was fabulous but once again how you can select a very good scrum half over the greatest scrum half & best player who ever drew breath (that I've seen) is staggering.

[Snipe Watson]

Too many amateur era chappies in those teams.
1. Os du Randt Paulie Wallace near killed the fat ox, you don't get out much Snipe, highly overrated.
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Karl Hayman
4. Martin Johnston captain
5. John Eales
6. Buck Shelford
7 Michael Jones
8.Zinzan Brooke
9. Joost van der Westhuizen
10.Jonny Wilkinson
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Tim Horan
13. BOD
14. Campo
15. Serge Blanco

You know what? I can't be bothered at this hour.

Joost was fabulous but once again how you can select a very good scrum half over the greatest scrum half & best player who ever drew breath (that I've seen) is staggering.

I can't put in a guy who I don't remember other than in highlights and Question of Sport.
I remember the job Wally did on Os and the job Scott Gibbs did on him too in the loose, but Loosehead was the toughest spot to fill. It was him or Woodcock.

[bazzaj]

Saw footage on utube of when a NZ prop went off on the 1971 Lions 4th test and Laurie Knight thought he could do a job as he was a weights freak until they readied a replacement.
He went up against Fran Cotton and the results would be hillarious if they werent so dangerous.
Massive repect to the front rowers.

[big mervyn]

Too many amateur era chappies in those teams.
1. Os du Randt Paulie Wallace near killed the fat ox, you don't get out much Snipe, highly overrated.
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Karl Hayman
4. Martin Johnston captain
5. John Eales
6. Buck Shelford
7 Michael Jones
8.Zinzan Brooke
9. Joost van der Westhuizen
10.Jonny Wilkinson
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Tim Horan
13. BOD
14. Campo
15. Serge Blanco

You know what? I can't be bothered at this hour.

Joost was fabulous but once again how you can select a very good scrum half over the greatest scrum half & best player who ever drew breath (that I've seen) is staggering.

I can't put in a guy who I don't remember other than in highlights and Question of Sport.
I remember the job Wally did on Os and the job Scott Gibbs did on him too in the loose, but Loosehead was the toughest spot to fill. It was him or Woodcock.

You rememember Gerd Muller but you can't remember Gareth. That's sad

You must be a few years younger than me, as I enjoyed the last 3 years of his international career after I started playing rugby at school in 1975. Still a world class player at that stage of his career.

[BaggyTrousers]

I saw Edwards live many times both at Lansdowne Road and the Arms Park and plenty on the box also. I too am at a loss as to how you enthuse about fat Gerd Muller but have no memory of the greatest rugby player of all time?

You a late convert from wendyball Snipe? Don't be embarrassed about it, at least you've seen the light.

Mind you Muller's record of more international goals than appearances is sensational.

[bazzaj]

I could go with Shelford easily snipe but as an 8.
Don't ever recall him being a 6 unless you have seen him play there but I can't for the life of me remember him playing 6.

[Snipe Watson]

I could go with Shelford easily snipe but as an 8.
Don't ever recall him being a 6 unless you have seen him play there but I can't for the life of me remember him playing 6.

It was simple really, I couldn't leave him out and Zinzan Brooke is the best 8 I've ever seen.

[bazzaj]

I can remember the furore and confusion at the time when Shelford was dropped for Brooke.
In fact I think it was actually questioned in the nz parliament if memory serves which it usually doesn't. .
Remember wondering why they never accommodated Brooke at 6 to play them both as Shelford was just immense, captaining in my view the greatest side ever and intensifying the haka to what it is now.

[Snipe Watson]

I can remember the furore and confusion at the time when Shelford was dropped for Brooke.
In fact I think it was actually questioned in the nz parliament if memory serves which it usually doesn't. .
Remember wondering why they never accommodated Brooke at 6 to play them both as Shelford was just immense, captaining in my view the greatest side ever and intensifying the haka to what it is now.

Buck Shelford was just about the hardest man I have ever seen on a rugby field, but that was not all that there was to his game.

[bazzaj]

I can remember the furore and confusion at the time when Shelford was dropped for Brooke.
In fact I think it was actually questioned in the nz parliament if memory serves which it usually doesn't. .
Remember wondering why they never accommodated Brooke at 6 to play them both as Shelford was just immense, captaining in my view the greatest side ever and intensifying the haka to what it is now.

Buck Shelford was just about the hardest man I have ever seen on a rugby field, but that was not all that there was to his game.

Didn't he play on against France with a ripped scrotum?
Bagster will probably put me right as a other urban myth

[big mervyn]

I can remember the furore and confusion at the time when Shelford was dropped for Brooke.
In fact I think it was actually questioned in the nz parliament if memory serves which it usually doesn't. .
Remember wondering why they never accommodated Brooke at 6 to play them both as Shelford was just immense, captaining in my view the greatest side ever and intensifying the haka to what it is now.

Buck Shelford was just about the hardest man I have ever seen on a rugby field, but that was not all that there was to his game.

Didn't he play on against France with a ripped scrotum?
Bagster will probably put me right as a other urban myth

Nah. He had it stitched up before continuing. I believe one of his plums had to be put back in the beg first.