Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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darkside lightside
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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BuckRogers wrote:Not really sure where I stand on this. Individually I think Wales have a telling class difference in some key positions notably in the forms of North, Davies and Roberts they have three of the best/biggest/most powerful players in their positon currently playing international rugby.
a reasonable post BR, whoops I can't call you that because of the other BR, let's say Buck instead :D I agree that Wales have a telling class difference in some areas, they also have a telling class deficit in others - e.g pretty much all throughout the pack and out-half... All these players were on the pitch against England and Italy, and neither of those performances looked especially classy!! North for example, a guy who I think is outstanding, did SFA against Italy.

I'm not saying they're bad, or that we are better in every single position - simply that Gatland has them punching above their weight, and they aren't all they're hyped up to be
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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BT - I'll be honest, as soon as I see a post from you which is more than about 4 or 5 lines, I don't bother reading it. Sorry. I've wasted too much of my life already wading my way through the meandering, usually contradictory and sometimes utterly bizarre posts that you obssessively strew in my wake - flattering though it is to have my own personal stalker!

A bit rich coming from me, given that I have been known to write a long post or two in my time, but there you have it! :D
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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darkside lightside wrote:BT - I'll be honest, as soon as I see a post from you which is more than about 4 or 5 lines, I don't bother reading it. Sorry. I've wasted too much of my life already wading my way through the meandering, usually contradictory and sometimes utterly bizarre posts that you obssessively strew in my wake - flattering though it is to have my own personal stalker!

A bit rich coming from me, given that I have been known to write a long post or two in my time, but there you have it! :D

Timewaster - brief enough for you?

You wanted answers I gave them too you, I may not be alone in suspecting that you just haven't anything to say to contradict them.
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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darkside lightside
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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BaggyTrousers wrote:You wanted answers I gave them too you, I may not be alone in suspecting that you just haven't anything to say to contradict them.
there - I read that one - I'll let people draw their own conclusions by drawing a contrast between how I respond to everyone else, and how I respond (or not) to you! :thumleft:
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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darkside lightside wrote:
BaggyTrousers wrote:You wanted answers I gave them too you, I may not be alone in suspecting that you just haven't anything to say to contradict them.
there - I read that one - I'll let people draw their own conclusions by drawing a contrast between how I respond to everyone else, and how I respond (or not) to you! :thumleft:
A very convenient stance for a numpty with nothing but bluster to fall back on plus of course, little banker expressions such as "behind the curve" :lol: :lol: :lol:
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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Bart S wrote:I don't have the stats to back this up but I would suspect that on average, Ireland have been the 2nd most consistent team results wise (after France) in the 6 Nations over the past decade (ie since EOS and DK have been in charge).
you would be right, looking over the period from 2001 until now - we would come 4 pts behind France on a composite 6N table, and 6 pts ahead of England (and 24 pts ahead of Wales!) And what do we have to show for it? 1 Slam (France have 3 Slams and 2 championships, England 1 Slam and 2 championships, and Wales 2 Slams and counting)

More pertinently for where we are right now, over the last 3 seasons, a composite table looks like this:
6N.jpg
6N.jpg (20.68 KiB) Viewed 1430 times
So we are in 4th place - good enough?
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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brianc wrote:Of course Wales have more real "current" class than us, doubt even DL could argue McFadden is in Davies or Roberts class. We have a few very good players, some of whom are slightly past it, but look at some of the avearge guys we have, Ross, O'Callaghan, Reddan, Darcy, Earls??? None of them would get on a Wales second team. But again you are right DK must start to think differently, we all agree.
Explain this to me Brian - how come all the Welsh clubs, stuffed with all this 'current class' have once again utterly bombed in the HEC group stages? I say once again, because not only has a Welsh club never won the HEC, a Welsh club has never even appeared in the final! While the Irish clubs, with this supposed 'few' good players between them, some of them 'past it' have won the damn thing twice in the last 3 years?
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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darkside lightside wrote:
brianc wrote:Of course Wales have more real "current" class than us, doubt even DL could argue McFadden is in Davies or Roberts class. We have a few very good players, some of whom are slightly past it, but look at some of the avearge guys we have, Ross, O'Callaghan, Reddan, Darcy, Earls??? None of them would get on a Wales second team. But again you are right DK must start to think differently, we all agree.
Explain this to me Brian - how come all the Welsh clubs, stuffed with all this 'current class' have once again utterly bombed in the HEC group stages? I say once again, because not only has a Welsh club never won the HEC, a Welsh club has never even appeared in the final! While the Irish clubs, with this supposed 'few' good players between them, some of them 'past it' have won the damn thing twice in the last 3 years?
Allow me Brian, what an utter banker (& yes that was the censor) you should be aware that the HC has no limitation on only playing your national players. Gentlemen the man is an idiot! :duh:
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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BaggyTrousers wrote:Allow me Brian, what an utter banker (& yes that was the censor) you should be aware that the HC has no limitation on only playing your national players. Gentlemen the man is an idiot! :duh:
ah so it's just the foreigners who are decent for the Irish clubs! and the Welsh clubs only pick local lads! Boys who grew up in the valleys playing rugby between giant slag heaps, a baby leek behind the ear (and maybe a baby sheep behind the bike sheds...) - local Welsh lads like Paul Tito, Ben Blair, Xavier Rush, Deacon Manu, Vili Iongi, Ben Morgan, Casey Laulala, well there you have me just feeling all silly now, having made a big fool of myself :D
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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darkside lightside wrote:
Bart S wrote:I don't have the stats to back this up but I would suspect that on average, Ireland have been the 2nd most consistent team results wise (after France) in the 6 Nations over the past decade (ie since EOS and DK have been in charge).
you would be right, looking over the period from 2001 until now - we would come 4 pts behind France on a composite 6N table, and 6 pts ahead of England (and 24 pts ahead of Wales!) And what do we have to show for it? 1 Slam (France have 3 Slams and 2 championships, England 1 Slam and 2 championships, and Wales 2 Slams and counting)

More pertinently for where we are right now, over the last 3 seasons, a composite table looks like this:
6N.jpg
So we are in 4th place - good enough?
1. D/L - Why did you choose to take the past 2 and a bit seasons, rather than the whole of Kidney's reign, since he is clearly the target of your anger?

2. IF Ireland were to beat England this weekend and France beat "the not very good" (per your own posts) Wales team, then we'd be 2nd in your composite table.

Would that be good enough for you??
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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darkside lightside wrote:
BuckRogers wrote:Not really sure where I stand on this. Individually I think Wales have a telling class difference in some key positions notably in the forms of North, Davies and Roberts they have three of the best/biggest/most powerful players in their positon currently playing international rugby.
a reasonable post BR, whoops I can't call you that because of the other BR, let's say Buck instead :D I agree that Wales have a telling class difference in some areas, they also have a telling class deficit in others - e.g pretty much all throughout the pack and out-half... All these players were on the pitch against England and Italy, and neither of those performances looked especially classy!! North for example, a guy who I think is outstanding, did SFA against Italy.

I'm not saying they're bad, or that we are better in every single position - simply that Gatland has them punching above their weight, and they aren't all they're hyped up to be
I'd say AW Jones, Bradley Davies and Charteris are all better than DOC. Backrow is beter balanced and superior to Irelands these days, like it or not. SOB and Heaslip not setting the world on fire these days and it's not all DK's fault.

As for your comment about Wales not turning in "classy" performances, despite getting the wins, I'd love to know how many "classy" performances you've seen from the Springboks or the Wallabies over the past 12 months. Have they been producing classy performances consistently?

Don't understand what point you are trying to make about North re. the Italy game? Are you saying that if he has a bad game, Wales aren't great? Could apply that to a lot of outstanding rugby players.
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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darkside lightside wrote:
BaggyTrousers wrote:Allow me Brian, what an utter banker (& yes that was the censor) you should be aware that the HC has no limitation on only playing your national players. Gentlemen the man is an idiot! :duh:
ah so it's just the foreigners who are decent for the Irish clubs! and the Welsh clubs only pick local lads! Boys who grew up in the valleys playing rugby between giant slag heaps, a baby leek behind the ear (and maybe a baby sheep behind the bike sheds...) - local Welsh lads like Paul Tito, Ben Blair, Xavier Rush, Deacon Manu, Vili Iongi, Ben Morgan, Casey Laulala, well there you have me just feeling all silly now, having made a big fool of myself :D
Had you the brains to understand, you would get the fact that not one of those is in the same class as Rocky Elsom without whom its high doubtful that Leinster would have won in 2009.

Most would be the type of NIQ that Connacht would seek & of course they thought Morgan was going to be a Welshman anyway and of course despite his promise he is far from the class Ulster would sign as an NIQ at this stage. Tito, Rush, Blair Laulala all from one club and not a star amongst them, decent grafters all.

Now, you should be feeling silly & you have made a big fool of yourself. :wink:
NEVER MOVE ON. Years on, I cannot ever watch Ireland with anything but indifference, I continue to wish for the imminent death of Donal Spring, the FIRFUC's executioner of Wee Paddy & Wee Stu, and I hate the FIRFUCs with undiminished passion.
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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DL, you know what is really weird about all this, none of us are that far apart in our view of Ireland, (including yourself, Baggy & me :shock: :shock: :shock: ). Your belief is that Wales has over achieved & Ireland has under achieved, (perhaps only marginally in both cases?). My belief is that Ireland over achieved slightly a few years ago & are now probably performing about where they belong, Wales are about where they should be given the players available, (Welsh ones, not foreigners :lol: :lol: ). My "beef" with your argument is the obsession with manufacturing stats which show that DK is somehow to blame for all this, your last table is a good case in point. My view on DK is that he is as conservative as the Nazi in the Vatican, but works under pretty strict orders from Wigglesworth et al, (not Big Al BTW :shock: :shock: ).

Would also like to point out a piece from Baggy's post which you didnt read,

"DL, I wish I could be more kind to you for it is obvious, as I've said before, that you love your rugby and are busting yer ballix to convince everyone that because you have such belief that it is so. I simply believe that you are a long way from seeing the Ireland that you & I both want to see. For me, the big difference is that we have different explanations for our disappointments. "

Agree with him here, we all want to see a bit more, new coach would be a great start, but I will take some convincing that Ireland can compete every season at a higher level than where we are now.
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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Bart S wrote:I'd say AW Jones, Bradley Davies and Charteris are all better than DOC. Backrow is beter balanced and superior to Irelands these days, like it or not. SOB and Heaslip not setting the world on fire these days and it's not all DK's fault.
nice bait and switch :) yes they are indeed better than DOC, who these days is a Munster sub who shouldn't even be in the Irish 22 - they aren't better than Ryan, POC or Tuohy. Lydiate and Faletau aren't a patch on Ferris, SOB and Heaslip - the big difference in their back row is that they have Warburton, who I think is an excellent player, and certainly makes a difference. Look we could go round in circles all day and night arguing the toss about players - I'm not saying that Ireland are unbelievably out of sight better than Wales, what I am saying is that Wales aren't unbelievably out of sight better than Ireland. But I believe that we are stronger through the squad, and that if we played with an appropriate gameplan, we would beat them - but we haven't the last few times we have met
Bart S wrote:As for your comment about Wales not turning in "classy" performances, despite getting the wins, I'd love to know how many "classy" performances you've seen from the Springboks or the Wallabies over the past 12 months. Have they been producing classy performances consistently?

Don't understand what point you are trying to make about North re. the Italy game? Are you saying that if he has a bad game, Wales aren't great? Could apply that to a lot of outstanding rugby players.
you're missing my point, the contention was that Wales were somehow much 'classier' than Ireland at the minute, I was simply saying, are they really? I don't have a problem with decent teams winning ugly in principle, I only have a problem with decent teams (which is what Wales are, no more, no less) winning ugly but being hyped as brilliant! Re North, all I'm saying is he's a great player, but let's keep it in proportion FFS!
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Re: Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

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brianc wrote:My "beef" with your argument is the obsession with manufacturing stats which show that DK is somehow to blame for all this, your last table is a good case in point.
Brian - I think there's a misconception though, that I am consumed with hatred of DK and go all out to try to discredit him etc etc. I am not. When he was appointed I was sceptical, when we went through all of 2009 without losing I was saying, ok fair enough, it looks like he was the right man for the job after all (despite having a few nagging doubts watching the last minute draw against Aus).

The simple fact is, since then it's been one way traffic - Ireland have pretty much tanked, and not looked anywhere near winning anything.. I trust the evidence of my very own eyes first of all - when I see muck rugby, I don't first think 'but DK is in charge, so I must be missing something' - I think 'this is muck rugby'... I haven't manufactured any stats - the table above is the last 3 years, exactly because it's the period the last 3 years that things have gone wrong!!!

As for Baggy's point (and thanks for digging through the wreckage - you deserve a medal :thumleft: :D ) what I see is an international side selected from high-performing club sides, that in the last couple of years has routinely lost to international sides selected from worse-performing club sides. And for me, the desire to explain away the disconnect in some comforting way is understandable, but leads to bull***t rationalisations - I prefer to look at things square on, ask why our tactics are so often muddled and ineffective, ask why players who are confident and comfortable in their skin at their clubs, look anything but for their country, and there is no way to answer those kind of questions honestly, without bringing the coaches into question.
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