Future of rugby as we know it?

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Bring Humph On!!
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Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Bring Humph On!! »

Where is our game going?

Are we going to follow the fitba route and the haves & have nots?

It saddens me to see & hear owners talking of "brands" rather than clubs (or provinces BR :duck: )? There are very decent rugby people who support Saracens, and I know some of you know them as friends. What are their thoughts on the direction the Saracens club is going in?

The level of debt talked about is, in my opinion unsustainable in rugby. I hope other clubs don't follow this route as it would be the ruination of our game. Maybe the French have already. Is the sport already on the slippery slope.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... rther.html
"But going forward, at Ulster Rugby, one thing will never change. As long as this great club exists, the person and the player, Nevin Spence, will never be forgotten."



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rumncoke
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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by rumncoke »

Like all overdrafts the debt has to be financed and at the moment Interest rates are low

If and when they rise then the funds may be less available and the Sh1t hit the fan .

The thing that could precipitate the collapse of the deck of cards is the fact the guarantee of the holding Company is not legally binding , not to many Banks or lenders like something which is not legally binding.


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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Rooster »

I wouldn't doubt that the entire Sarries system is actually some type of complex tax scheme or money laundering system. £46 million debt with no security sounds as if someone is at something not quite legal.
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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Rooster »

Once a Knight wrote:
Rooster wrote:I wouldn't doubt that the entire Sarries system is actually some type of complex tax scheme or money laundering system. £46 million debt with no security sounds as if someone is at something not quite legal.
I assumed it was a way of rich South Africans moving money out of South Africa without falling foul of currency restrictions? Is it not? :scratch:
Is that not roughly what I was inferring ? Should be a good fire sale whatever day the excrement hits the fan and someone decides it's time to get a slice of the takings.
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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by BaggyTrousers »

The most interesting thing would be, who are the clubs debtors? Banks, other companies probably with common directors, private individuals, non-doms? I'd hesitate to say money launderers, Mr Pizza might relieve me of a portion of my meagre stipend.
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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Rooster »

Can't see any banks funding loans to an unsecured creditor, could be directors loans but then they would in theory have introduced the capital into the company and then they should be able to say where the money came from and if they can't do that then HMRC could be sitting in the wings just waiting for a nice wee pay off. No doubt they know what they are at but it does sound very strange situation when their debt has gone up yet Wray says their financial situation has improved plus they have actually no obligation to cover the debt which would infer those who are in debt to the company are just willing to write off their monetary obligations though it makes you wonder are the player contracts worth the paper they are written on
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Jackie Brown
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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Jackie Brown »

What's the RAND worth now? Fecking nothing that's what. At some point these guys are going to want their money back.

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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Snipe Watson »

I think Rooster has hit the nail on the head. There is some complex scam running. These Saffers are not throwing their money down a black hole in Barnet.
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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Russ »

Snipe Watson wrote:I think Rooster has hit the nail on the head. There is some complex scam running. These Saffers are not throwing their money down a black hole in Barnet.
As far as I'm aware it's a tax avoidance scheme
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Bring Humph On!!
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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Bring Humph On!! »

I am maybe talking of 2 different things or maybe rules are different between France & England, but have clubs in France not gone bust recently or lost their licence because they were not able to balance the books?
"But going forward, at Ulster Rugby, one thing will never change. As long as this great club exists, the person and the player, Nevin Spence, will never be forgotten."



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Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Wee Woman »

This is why Saracens need to win the European Cup, they are obviously banking on a win to open up more 'opportunities' and put them in a better financial position.

I imagine Nigel Wray has had a plan in place for years now but wasn't able to exploit it as the damned Irish (& to some extent Toulon) keep stealing Saracens thunder.

It still isn't over yet Mr. Wray
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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Bangors »

Was it not over borrowing with no means of repayment that caused the downfall of Leeds Utd a few years ago
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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Rooster »

Bangors wrote:Was it not over borrowing with no means of repayment that caused the downfall of Leeds Utd a few years ago
Nothing to say that Sarries have actually borrowed any money
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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Snipe Watson »

Once a Knight wrote: Has everyone got that now?
No chance :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Future of rugby as we know it?

Post by Rooster »

Once a Knight wrote:
Rooster wrote:
Bangors wrote:Was it not over borrowing with no means of repayment that caused the downfall of Leeds Utd a few years ago
Nothing to say that Sarries have actually borrowed any money
Right, I will try to make this simple.

I am a millionaire. I decide that I'd like to take a punt on setting up a business. I form a company. The company is legally a separate entity. The company has no money. I make myself a director of the company. I "lend" the company £2 Million as a Dorectors Loan.

The company trades profitably. I don't take a salary but repay my loan (I'm lead to believe this attracts no tax as it is my money".

The company doesn't trade profitably but doesn't make an operating loss either.

Technically, the company is £2 million in debt on its Profit and Loss account. However, as the director I'm not going to look for the money back because it was a punt.

A Directors Loan is NOT an overdraft.

Has everyone got that now?
Nah Sarries is nowhere near as simple as all that and directors loans would not cover the sort of dealings going on, it is a cross border deal of some sort based on South African funding, read the couple of excerpts below and you will see how complex it all is.

Their legal eagles
Memery Crystal Advises Premier Team Holdings Limited in Funding by South African Investments Limited
Memery Crystal LLP has acted for Premier Team Holdings Limited ("Premier Team Holdings") in connection with an investment of an undisclosed amount in the company made by South African Investments Limited ("SAIL").

Premier Team Holdings' most high-profile asset is Saracens Rugby Football Club. The company also owns two other businesses - RT Marketing, a marketing and communications agency; and MBN Promotions, the UK's leading provider of sporting events hospitality - and is a major shareholder in the National Sporting Club. The investment by SAIL will facilitate the further development of Premier Team Holdings.

Companies within the South African based SAIL include Navitute, which offers sports business consulting and rights commercialisation; SAIL Sport & Entertainment, an event, merchandising and sponsorship management company; and CIRCA, which offers hospitality management, stadium management and event creation. SAIL is also a shareholder in the Blue Bulls Company, Western Province and Griffons rugby organisations, as well as the sport-travel company Edusport.

The Memery Crystal team was headed by corporate partner Daniel Bellau, assisted by corporate assistant Kieran Stone.

Daniel Bellau commented: "We are pleased to have worked with Premier Team Holdings in securing this significant investment. Saracens has a long tradition of excelling at their game and a very exciting future, and we are proud to have been a part of their team."
Some of the companies involved
https://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/ ... m-holdings
https://companycheck.co.uk/company/0553 ... -structure
https://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/saracens
https://companycheck.co.uk/company/0311 ... -structure

some of the figures
https://www.duedil.com/company/05530017 ... financials

If you really want to get lost in the investors etc then you finish up with various holding companies and investment companies all over the world
Venfin Investments are a major SA investment co for a start

Oh and if you get tired looking at all those ones then you can check out the Vunipola outfit Shieldplay Ltd
“That made me feel very special and underlined to me that Ulster is more than a team, it is a community and a rugby family"
Rory Best
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