Shoulder to Shoulder

[BaggyTrousers]

Being shown again on BT Sport this evening at 18.30 if anyone who hasn't seen it yet (me) and wants to be offended (not necessarily me).

I would guesstimate that it has been on about 20 times this week and I have skillfully managed to avoid it, barring 10 seconds when I came in this evening, and turning on the magic box, still tuned to BTS2, there was the little gobshite talking to some po-faced Orangebastard. No idea what the fecker and the ruddy baked gombeen were talking about but I swiftly hit 2 on the remote which brought me to the safety on BBCNI HD.

[promenader 2]

Did anyone else watch that documentary by your fella from down the road ?

I wouldn't pay for BT, but managed to see it via other means.
Got to say some of it was interested but overall I found it a bit shallow. I'm possibly to easily offended, but he seemed to be saying he doesn't understand why us Nordies support Ireland.

Three bits got up my nose in particular.
1) He didn't understand the difference between British and English. He interviewed a bunch of orange-men. When asked about their identity they all said they were Irish, and followed up by saying but they were also British. BOD expressed his confusion about why they would support Ireland and particularly when Ireland play England as they see themselves a British. Now they did say they were British, but they all Identified themselves Irish first. He also neglected to consider why this is a big deal, when the majority of Welsh and Scottish people will identify themselves and Welsh and Scottish, but carrier British passports.

2) He pretended to care about the hard times Northern Irish players had to go through in order to represent Ireland. He then cut to how the anthem should-to-shoulder came about. But there was never an acknowledgment that being inclusive, and trying to do something that included everybody was the right thing. In my opinion he either sat on the fence, or stayed on the side that says It should be the Irish flag and the Irish anthem or nothing.

3) There was alot of self-worship over the small matter of BOD playing a lambeg drum. This segment seemed to get alot of attention. Not sure why, as I suspect most people, republican or loyalist give a feck. He did highlight one tweet, which was out of order, but didn't really focus or read out anyone that was supportive. After asking several people did he do the right thing, and what would people thing of him, I thought the matter was put to bed. Only for him to again ask his Maa what she thought. Thanks goodness she didn't follow the full script when he asked her, did she have concerns about sending him up north as a lad. I think she said 'na'.
For an example of how to not give a feck about republican vs nationalism and slap down twitter trolls see Carl Frampton for tips. https://www.independent.ie/sport/leftfi ... 00923.html

Overall some interesting material but ultimately a self indulgent production.

'He didn't understand the difference between British and English'
No problem, neither do most English people I know
'BOD expressed his confusion about why they would support Ireland and particularly when Ireland play England as they see themselves a British.'
The Scots and the Welsh have their own flag and anthem, which distinguishes them more clearly from the English. The last time Ireland played up here, there was a huge DUP / Lord Laird led campaign to have GSTQ played before the match. The NI football team still insist in standing for GSTQ and you'll still see a smattering of union flags around the terraces at Windsor and at NI away games. For Mexicans unaccustomed to nordie ways, it must all seem a bit confusing.
'when the majority of Welsh and Scottish people will identify themselves and Welsh and Scottish, but carry British passports'
They don't have any choice if they want to travel abroad.

[Tender]

So all we require is our own Anthem and it’s sorted?
If BOD, or anyone else fails to understand the difference between British and English they are either English, thick or can’t be bothered trying.

[Setanta]

Bigot, always has had a chip on his shoulder; still a bigot!

[big mervyn]

So all we require is our own Anthem and it’s sorted?
If BOD, or anyone else fails to understand the difference between British and English they are either English, thick or can’t be bothered trying.

It's ar$eholes like BOD that give us all a bad name. This is the sort of pigshit thickery that you normally associated with ill educated Lionels (like yer Tory MP that thinks he's entitled to an Irish passport )

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Watched it this morning and most of the previous points have some validity in my view.

He can't understand the difference between English and British - he's stupid or blind (or both)

He didn't seem to recognise, know or understand that Orangeism doesn't represent all protestants or even a majority.

My only real criticism of the programme was the assertion that after the Good Friday Agreement was signed that "all political prisoners were released", when it was criminals that were released, not political prisoners.

They had all been through a criminal justice system, and whatever colour they claimed to represent, they were at the end of the day, just criminals, not political prisoners.

I'm not saying BOD necessarily believes that, it may just have been a bit of script, or a sentence he was fed, but for me, it just wasn't true.

Well done BT for facilitating that little bit of propaganda, BTW.

[promenader 2]

Watched it this morning and most of the previous points have some validity in my view.

He can't understand the difference between English and British - he's stupid or blind (or both)

He didn't seem to recognise, know or understand that Orangeism doesn't represent all protestants or even a majority.

My only real criticism of the programme was the assertion that after the Good Friday Agreement was signed that "all political prisoners were released", when it was criminals that were released, not political prisoners.

They had all been through a criminal justice system, and whatever colour they claimed to represent, they were at the end of the day, just criminals, not political prisoners.

I'm not saying BOD necessarily believes that, it may just have been a bit of script, or a sentence he was fed, but for me, it just wasn't true.

Well done BT for facilitating that little bit of propaganda, BTW.

'They had all been through a criminal justice system, and whatever colour they claimed to represent, they were at the end of the day, just criminals, not political prisoners.'

Yeah, loads of burglars were put through the Diplock Courts.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

I will defend your right to your own opinion ... even if it is wrong.

[Aird]

I watched the programme and was amused how he struggled to accept the concept of being both Britosh and Irish and an Ulsterman. A bit disappointing that he only dealt with the higher levels of the game and virtually ignored the club scene where both pre AIL and throughout the AIL teams travelled both north and south.
He also missed his chance to highlight that whilst Soccer was bitterly divided most other sports even GAA were organised on an all Ireland Basis and that other sports have taken Irelands Call as their anthem for international competitions but then maybe that didn't fit his agenda. I was surprised he did not comment on who penned Ireland's Call.
It was very much a "Dubliner's " view of the situation.

[BR]

Haven't seen it, but it sounds to me like a Dubliner's view, as Aird says.
BOD may even have played de tick Dub a little in order to ask questions which he wished to be answered (it's a method of making documentary TV). Just because a TV presenter asks a question, doesn't mean he doesn't know the answer.

The RoI education system is excellent, but it does (or certainly did) have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to the history of the state and its relationship with the rest of the island.
I'd be interested in Shan's view.

As for the not understanding being Irish and British - ask your granny.

[Cockatrice]

His and Craig Doyle’s production company paid for by BT.

He seemed perplexed at McBride telling the story of Bloodly Friday and whilst I don’t expect him to know the history of the troubles in much detail I thought as an educated Dubliner who captained Ireland he may have taken more interest in the Ulsrermen that played alongside him.. even to extend of knowin something.

[WeeWorld]

His and Craig Doyle’s production company paid for by BT.

He seemed perplexed at McBride telling the story of Bloodly Friday and whilst I don’t expect him to know the history of the troubles in much detail I thought as an educated Dubliner who captained Ireland he may have taken more interest in the Ulsrermen that played alongside him.. even to extend of knowin something.

Rugbypass censors everything with Craig Doyle in it.

[Tighthead Prod]

Contrary to the views of the majority of posters, I enjoyed the programme and thought the issues addressed were, on the whole, handled in a fair and even-handed manner. Yes, it wasn’t perfect with especially the Irish and British issue not satisfactorily teased out. In addition, the programme was bummed up by BT to the extent that the previews were ‘’nearly’’ suggesting that an All Ireland Rugby team was solely responsible for the Peace process. However, it certainly wasn’t the worst media offering on the ‘’Norn Irish/Irish Question’’.

Apart from the ‘’political prisoner’’ designation, which I missed, I thought the scriptwriters avoided the pitfall of describing historical issues which are open to differing interpretations, as established facts. eg when referring to the October ’68 Civil Rights’ March in ‘Derry, BOD stated that the Nationalists ‘FELT’ discriminated against as opposed to WERE discriminated against. In this and other regards I thought the programme was much more nuanced than those made by other more established broadcasters.

Contrary to the opinion of my respected friend Grumpy, I liked the scenes with the Orange Men and felt their views were treated in an unbiased way. I’m no fan of any of the Loyal Orders, but was relieved that the programme makers decided to interview people at a ‘’country twelfth’’ as opposed to the ‘’Buckfast Intelligentsia’’ at a 11th Night bonfire as happened in a recent BBC 3 offering.

I think some of the critics on this thread are not too dissimilar to members of ‘’Concerned Residents Groups’’ who set their alarm clocks for 6 AM so as not to miss being offended by an Orange Order march taking place a mile away from their home !!

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Tighty, I didn't say I didn't enjoy scenes with the Orange Order, all I commented was that the Orange Order is not representative of all Protestants. That is not to put any blame on BOD, if no one advised him of that. I welcomed him meeting with representatives of the Order. I have even met with one or two high ranking Representatives of the Order myself and voiced my own criticism of them - they rejected my criticism out of hand (which is neither here nor there).

I did actually think it was a half-decent programme in which as most have pointed out, he just couldn't understand the concept of being British is not the same as being English. If he thinks about Welsh and Scots being British, but still Welsh or Scottish, maybe he will put 2 and 2 together.

My only criticism was the one I mentioned (and which applies equally to criminals on BOTH sides), but really don't want to dwell upon.

Re BR's comment "Just because a TV presenter asks a question, doesn't mean he doesn't know the answer", That is very true, but in this case it was patently obvious that he couldn't understand the answer, which was repeated several times by several individuals. Surprisingly, he just couldn't get his head round it.

If, however, he has any better understanding of what makes us "lefties" click, and hasn't just done this to make a programme to look good on the "mainland" with his BT masters, it will have been worthwhile.

[BaggyTrousers]

There is no way you could do a documentary on this place without some fukker getting "offended".

Getting a hateful glype who hates Nordies wasn't the best start. I'm offended every time that weebastard opens his snide mouth, however, as taking offence is a complete nonsense unworthy of recognition, I recognise his right to have zero fecks for my opinion of him.