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Is it starting to hit home yet?

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby Columbo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:39 pm

Dave wrote:The FIRFU are a witless and spineless shower who simply do not care what happens to Ulster. They love the colour of money much more than the health of "four" proud provinces. There is a clear pecking order and we are at the bottom. Things are not getting better anytime soon.

going back to the OP, there is a clear pecking order, with two levels: the international team, and then everything else.. The international side pays the bills - none of the provinces makes money, they all receive subventions from D4. So to the extent there is a further pecking order among the provinces, it will come down to bang for buck - who contributes most to the success of teh Irish team, and at what cost? Leinster will be the teacher's pet, because they produce loads of good players, yes they're expensive but they bring in decent commercial revenues as well as winning things, which is good for prestige, but also for the coffers.

Below that it's not clear cut - Munster have a good current crop of Irish internationals, but have serially over-committed financially over the last 15 years, bleed red ink, can't service their debts, and in the last couple of years don't seem to have been producing as many players at age grade.

And we have been a shambles in terms of management, have provided a couple of players for the Irish team, run a tighter ship financially - but, and here I completely agree with the IRFU, we have completely failed at creating a sustainable "development pathway" for the professional game,and become ever more reliant on imports to paper over the cracks. Going out and signing a Coetzee or Piutau is a nice cocaine hit - compared with the grind of spending 4-5 years developing young players, but the only way we will be competitive again is if we start majoring on the latter rather than the former..

No, we're never going to have a Leinster-style conveyor belt, but few clubs in Europe, never mind Ireland, will - but we have done a shocking job. If you look at our squad, what graduates from the academy in the last 5 seasons - so roughly aged 22-27 - have we developed as genuine international options? I have Henderson in the pack, and Stockdale, Gilroy, Marshall and McCloskey in the backs. That is a very poor return. (I count 15 in the Leinster squad...)

So I can understand the IRFU's frustration, and why they forced the issue over Pienaar - even if it might have been less damaging to do so over a different player.

We need to:
1) get the academy working - we will know it is when Ulster A is essentially an academy XV and is competitive in the Celtic League, when we see players consistently breaking through to the senior side, and when rates of players dropping out fall back substantially. This is the most important thing.

Then, supplementally:
2) continue to box smart with IQ recruitment - I have absolutely no problem with us or any other Irish province being proactive in snapping up foreign IQs. The Exiles have been doing a cracking job recently, and we should absolutely make it work for us - the important thing is that we filter properly, and stop signing any joker who happens to have an Irish grannie (I'll not name names)
3) continue to box smart when hiring from other provinces - again I have no problem with intra-provincial transfers, and I think we'll be seeing more of them. All squads will naturally have areas of relative strength and weakness, so it stands to reason that across the 4, some good players will be blocked, while some less good players will be racking up game time.
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby Gerald the Mole » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:45 pm

So wrong
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby therealspratt » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:51 pm

Columbo wrote:
Dave wrote:The FIRFU are a witless and spineless shower who simply do not care what happens to Ulster. They love the colour of money much more than the health of "four" proud provinces. There is a clear pecking order and we are at the bottom. Things are not getting better anytime soon.

going back to the OP, there is a clear pecking order, with two levels: the international team, and then everything else.. The international side pays the bills - none of the provinces makes money, they all receive subventions from D4. So to the extent there is a further pecking order among the provinces, it will come down to bang for buck - who contributes most to the success of teh Irish team, and at what cost? Leinster will be the teacher's pet, because they produce loads of good players, yes they're expensive but they bring in decent commercial revenues as well as winning things, which is good for prestige, but also for the coffers.

Below that it's not clear cut - Munster have a good current crop of Irish internationals, but have serially over-committed financially over the last 15 years, bleed red ink, can't service their debts, and in the last couple of years don't seem to have been producing as many players at age grade.

And we have been a shambles in terms of management, have provided a couple of players for the Irish team, run a tighter ship financially - but, and here I completely agree with the IRFU, we have completely failed at creating a sustainable "development pathway" for the professional game,and become ever more reliant on imports to paper over the cracks. Going out and signing a Coetzee or Piutau is a nice cocaine hit - compared with the grind of spending 4-5 years developing young players, but the only way we will be competitive again is if we start majoring on the latter rather than the former..

No, we're never going to have a Leinster-style conveyor belt, but few clubs in Europe, never mind Ireland, will - but we have done a shocking job. If you look at our squad, what graduates from the academy in the last 5 seasons - so roughly aged 22-27 - have we developed as genuine international options? I have Henderson in the pack, and Stockdale, Gilroy, Marshall and McCloskey in the backs. That is a very poor return. (I count 15 in the Leinster squad...)

So I can understand the IRFU's frustration, and why they forced the issue over Pienaar - even if it might have been less damaging to do so over a different player.

We need to:
1) get the academy working - we will know it is when Ulster A is essentially an academy XV and is competitive in the Celtic League, when we see players consistently breaking through to the senior side, and when rates of players dropping out fall back substantially. This is the most important thing.

Then, supplementally:
2) continue to box smart with IQ recruitment - I have absolutely no problem with us or any other Irish province being proactive in snapping up foreign IQs. The Exiles have been doing a cracking job recently, and we should absolutely make it work for us - the important thing is that we filter properly, and stop signing any joker who happens to have an Irish grannie (I'll not name names)
3) continue to box smart when hiring from other provinces - again I have no problem with intra-provincial transfers, and I think we'll be seeing more of them. All squads will naturally have areas of relative strength and weakness, so it stands to reason that across the 4, some good players will be blocked, while some less good players will be racking up game time.

Number 1, number 1 and number 1 again. If we're to have any degree of success it'll all come from locally grown lads going through the academy.
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby BaggyTrousers » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:00 pm

Gerald the Mole wrote:So wrong


As I told you on another thread Ger, Colon talks out of his arsehole.

Here he has assembled a few facts and tried to spin a well-turned story out of them. Sadly it has escaped his attention that the Academy has actually turned the corner significantly within the last 3-4 years and the fruits of that are beginning to come through.

Had he just a little logical ability and addressed the 18-22 profile in a forensic way rather as he attempted with 22-27, he may have realised he was about to evacuate a big steaming pile of bullshite our of his electronic device.

People witter on about taking horses to water, that is nonsense horses will find water on their own.

I prefer to talk about Horticulture, for as anyone knows, you can take a whore to culture but you cannot make her learn.

Colon, eh?
Support the team and coaching staff. Forget the rest,BUT NEVER MOVE ON.

FIRFU - FU'CK YOU ONE AND ALL, CAVING IN TO SPONSORS, SACKING THE INNOCENT FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE, SHAMEFUL BASTA'RDS. YOU'VE LOST MY SUPPORT & I HOPE MORE ULSTERMEN & WOMEN
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby Amiga500 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:03 pm

columbo wrote:
therealspratt wrote:We need to:
1) get the academy working - we will know it is when Ulster A is essentially an academy XV and is competitive in the Celtic League, when we see players consistently breaking through to the senior side, and when rates of players dropping out fall back substantially. This is the most important thing.

Number 1, number 1 and number 1 again. If we're to have any degree of success it'll all come from locally grown lads going through the academy.


Abso-f**kin-lutely.

We're gonna have growing pains due to the lack of strength in depth.

But the only way to get the kids up to speed is to expose them to the standard they need to grow to.

Down the line, hopefully we'll not be in the position of having to send such a weak team down the road - but till then its just a case of shutting up and tolerating it.

Our problem I suppose, is that there is about a 5-8 year lag between getting the pathways & academy right, and knowing we are getting them right. There are good reports coming out of the work being done now and over the past couple of years (to which we haven't had any visibility of looking at the first and 2nd teams), and some green shoots are evident now in the younger ones coming through.
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby Gerald the Mole » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:17 pm

The academy is right.
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby BaggyTrousers » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:35 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
columbo wrote:
therealspratt wrote:We need to:
1) get the academy working - we will know it is when Ulster A is essentially an academy XV and is competitive in the Celtic League, when we see players consistently breaking through to the senior side, and when rates of players dropping out fall back substantially. This is the most important thing.

Number 1, number 1 and number 1 again. If we're to have any degree of success it'll all come from locally grown lads going through the academy.


Abso-f**kin-lutely.

We're gonna have growing pains due to the lack of strength in depth.

But the only way to get the kids up to speed is to expose them to the standard they need to grow to.

Down the line, hopefully we'll not be in the position of having to send such a weak team down the road - but till then its just a case of shutting up and tolerating it.

Our problem I suppose, is that there is about a 5-8 year lag between getting the pathways & academy right, and knowing we are getting them right. There are good reports coming out of the work being done now and over the past couple of years (to which we haven't had any visibility of looking at the first and 2nd teams), and some green shoots are evident now in the younger ones coming through.



Sweet Jesus, :banghead: Colon sells 1) as a "to do", he is several years out of date, it is working, you need to have no idea at all of what is happening at Ulster Rugby not to understand that. We have been through the period when the days of Boat came home to roost and as many as no players were emerging annually.

He is also talking bullshit about the measure of success. The A team in the last couple of seasons has been essentially academy, gone are the days when failed senior players play for them and don't bother their backsides. In the last couple of seasons, the likes of Cave has asked to play for them when Kiss wouldn't give him the time of day & last season Clive Ross played his guts out for them. However, when it comes to serious games in the Celtic if push comes to shove Mexico and the Turnips will put out a strong team with several first teamers. Frankly, I prefer us to give the A team over in so far as possible to the nippers.

So what is the measure to show it's working? The number of guys being capped at senior level and the number of guys playing in the Irelamd :puker: U20's in the U20 6Ns and Nippers RWC. By both measures we are seeing results.

Now FFFS lads start paying attention. Naz & Willie are doing a decent job, Clarke did too before them.
Support the team and coaching staff. Forget the rest,BUT NEVER MOVE ON.

FIRFU - FU'CK YOU ONE AND ALL, CAVING IN TO SPONSORS, SACKING THE INNOCENT FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE, SHAMEFUL BASTA'RDS. YOU'VE LOST MY SUPPORT & I HOPE MORE ULSTERMEN & WOMEN
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby Cockatrice » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:39 pm

rooster... he came and went it would seem but I once again must question the wisdom of this type of signing as something that is systematic of our somewhat confused policy.
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby BR » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:43 pm

Cockatrice wrote:rooster... he came and went it would seem but I once again must question the wisdom of this type of signing as something that is systematic of our somewhat confused policy.

As I said, do you think Ulster actively recruited him or did D4 send him north to see how he'd do?
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby therealspratt » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:51 pm

I don't know, we still aren't contributing tremendous numbers to a lot of the underage sides. Work's been done, but mostly to take us from an incredibly low base.
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby BaggyTrousers » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:06 pm

therealspratt wrote:I don't know, we still aren't contributing tremendous numbers to a lot of the underage sides. Work's been done, but mostly to take us from an incredibly low base.


In the last U20 6Ns there were 9 players in the original squad and at least one more was added subsequently. That and I believe 9 or 10 in a matchday squad against Wales If memory serves, was actually a very significant number and not too far behind Leinster. That was a huge turnaround since 7-10 years ago without a break in a sorry sequence.

I think a little thought and you will buy at least the majority of my last post, Colon's is utter nonsense, out of date nonsense.
Support the team and coaching staff. Forget the rest,BUT NEVER MOVE ON.

FIRFU - FU'CK YOU ONE AND ALL, CAVING IN TO SPONSORS, SACKING THE INNOCENT FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE, SHAMEFUL BASTA'RDS. YOU'VE LOST MY SUPPORT & I HOPE MORE ULSTERMEN & WOMEN
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby rumncoke » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:12 pm

Who have Ulster Academy turnout

Seymour ( Glasgow)
Olding—(Brive)
Jackson—(USAP)
Farrell—(Munster)
Arnold—(Munster)
Steenson—(Exeter)
Whitten—(Exeter)
Stokes—-(Connaught)
And I’m sure I have left out A few in the Championship

I would say that those backs match or may even better Leinster output of backs

What Ulster has failed to produce in quality or Quantity are forwards and those whom have shown promise have had a short shelf life


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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby Big-al » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:33 pm

and scrumhalves.
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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby rumncoke » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:54 pm

Al the rest of the Provinces haven't produced too many scrum halfs either of great merit .
Bar Murray Ireland are light in scrum halfs


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Re: Is it starting to hit home yet?

Postby Columbo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:23 pm

Amiga500 wrote:Our problem I suppose, is that there is about a 5-8 year lag between getting the pathways & academy right, and knowing we are getting them right. There are good reports coming out of the work being done now and over the past couple of years (to which we haven't had any visibility of looking at the first and 2nd teams), and some green shoots are evident now in the younger ones coming through.

I agree, I actually think we are a couple of years into that, so hopefully more like a 2-3 year lag. Our representation on Irish age grade teams was certainly higher last year, hopefully a good augur
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