The State of the Nation (Ulster)

[promenader 2]

Baggy, I consider myself a Christian- can’t comment on the decent. I agree with most of your post. I have not renewed my season ticket - still mulling it over. I don’t think any of us would agree with the treatment of the girl - even if it was consensual. However some have told me this is how young people now behave. I have every sympathy for the boys’ families and some sympathy for 2 silly young men. I feel strongly UR and IRFU had a duty of care towards them and they have behaved abominably by throwing money at them and telling them to go away.

I do not think this is the Christian approach and on reading the New Testament, Christ never condemned sinners. His only condemnation was for the religious hypocrites who set standards for other people, did nothing to help them live up to it and condemned them for their failure. Christians should recognise human frailty and mistakes and allow for remorse and forgiveness.

UR missed an opportunity to rehabilitate these 2 young men who have expressed remorse for their actions and could have led an educational campaign to educate young men (and women) throughout sport on how to behave off duty.

My opinions may be regarded as prudish but I was always taught to treat women with respect

Brian, I'm happy to treat you as a decent one, what you have said there chimes with what I understand to be the Christian way of doing things, I also call it simply treating people decently, I don't think you need to be a Christian to do so.

I don't want to rehash a load about the trial, I think we, unlike others, have moved past that the decision has been made, we will not change it. My efforts now are simply to spread "truth" far and wide in an effort that I hope will eventually lead to Terry's downfall. I could wax all Churchillian and say it will be long, it will be hard and there will be no withdrawal, but that sounds far too much like a Murray/Zebo sex tape for my liking.

Seeing Terry off will not be an easy task, it will take people to remember that smug horribly self-satisfied look on his fizzer when he gloried in his claimed part in dismissing the two young gentlemen and a determination to publicly undermine him. I've got nothing but time and a long memory.

People need to remember that his interview, like his 2009 CV, contained a limited amount of truth. The fact is that the FIRFU weighed up €12million of sponsorship against 2 players. The fact that they were Nordies, I believe, but cannot prove, made their decision to cave in to Bank of Ireland a no-brainer. In all reality, if you are happy to consider money as trumping morality, then there genuinely was no other decision. I doubt the decision took more than a quick nod around the table.

What sickens me to my core is that they then presume to describe their decision as something it is not, it's not moral, it's not for the benefit of downtrodden women and has nothing to do with how young players should behave, in the wise words of Jessie J - it's all about the money. Anything else is just Terry Slogan telling lies.

I share your sentiments Brian about " I was always taught to treat women with respect", so was I and I very much do however as a wise Ulster supporting lady, Ruthie Kohner said somewhere, "instead of just blaming men, teach your own daughters to have a bit of respect for themselves". I will not go into things regarding the young lady, other than to say, she was not invited to Paddy's house, he had no idea who she was, she was also no stranger to the act of crying rape, nobody was convicted that time either, indeed like this time the evidence was not remotely enough to take it to court, indeed I believe the police dismissed it out of hand.... but with one appalling difference, despite the prosecution service here not wanted to proceed .......well we all know what happened.

I know people who know the two young gentlemen, I don't myself, none describe them as saints, indeed Paddy is a messer, but neither he nor Stuart are the despicable scumbags they have been presented to be and are held to be by the #Ibelieveher tendency, including many charlatans who describe themselves as journalists.

Anyway Brian, to conclude, unlike Terry and the avaricious FIRFU, I claim to be far from perfect but to be fairly moral, my morals will not allow me to watch a snake-oil salesman like Terry ruin the Ulster team I have loved for decades.

To the barricades, brothers & sisters, off with his head.

'The fact is that the FIRFU weighed up €12million of sponsorship against 2 players. The fact that they were Nordies, I believe, but cannot prove, made their decision to cave in to Bank of Ireland a no-brainer. '
Agree with nearly everything you've posted on the state of Ulster Rugby recently, except for the bit about the IRFU having it in for us. I think Leinster are the favoured child of the IRFU - Munster and the Westies also have issues on that score - but that's a different argument from saying that we're discriminated against because we're Ulster. BOD's is right, hard though it is to hear. We are a basket case and we have to stop blaming everyone else for our problems, for they're largely of our own making.

[Tender]

Yep, like Ruan getting shafted, Paddy & Stu being less important than BOI dosh, Les Kiss foisted upon us, and D4 not using due diligence when checking SLogan’s fairytale CV.
Totally all our own fault.

[promenader 2]

Yep, like Ruan getting shafted, Paddy & Stu being less important than BOI dosh, Les Kiss foisted upon us, and D4 not using due diligence when checking SLogan’s fairytale CV.
Totally all our own fault.

1. Ruan got two extensions to his contract. The fact that he wanted to see out his career here is neither here nor there. Decisions like that aren't always made with the player's wishes the primary concern. Ulster wanted to keep him, sure, but are you telling me that the decision to move John Cooney up here was a bad one?
2. Paddy and Stu are less important than BoI dosh. Sad fact, but that's professional sport for you these days. It's all about the brand, all about the money.
3. Les Kiss was a respected coach before he arrived here. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, though.
4. Logan's not the first person to ever blag his way into a job, but neither of us know who recommended him for the post, who supported his application, who spoke up for him. I don't think we're in a position, therefore, to pass comment on the efficacy of the IRFU's due diligence.
The idea that the IRFU is content for Ulster to fail is bollix. Self interest dictates that the IRFU wants to see 4 provinces being successful and providing squad strength in depth for the Ireland coach to pick from. The idea that coaches and administrators from the southern hemisphere jeopardise their own professional ambitions by buying into our parochial, provincial politics is beyond ridiculous.

[rumncoke]

There is a little bit more to Christanity than Decency which is basically a fundemental of all religions but that is a different subject altogether . But one of the teachings would be 'hate the sin -- forgive the sinner '

Now the two young lads have voiced their remorse -- and there is every reason to believe it is genuine -- I see know sign of forgiveness nor a friendly hand up being offered by those who have heaped all the evils of men upon their shoulders.

Yes, men will take advantage of any woman who is foolish enough ,to not just put her self in the wrong place at the wrong time, but become a willing and consensual participant in the what may occur. The opportunity of course seldom occurs , thankfully, for most men.

But it becomes a hassard for those who have an aura of power or fame.

The first thing that any girl should be taught is self respect and if you allow yourself to one one of many, be aware, that familiarity breeds contempt. Good relationships require respect for oneself and each other .

Teaching people about relationships is all fine and dandy but it will do little for those who face the opportunity and temptation frequently.

What has this do with the State of the Nation -- just about everything -- Ulster didn't have an out half for a season -- we had a better thn average 12 playing out half and "inexperience combination" all season at half back the situation will continue in to next season.

Similarly we had as centres a combination of two 12s rather than an inside and outside centre.

The other factor of course is Ulster's back row which was a combination of injuries and inexperience and how it may improve next year is anybody's guess with out a coach .

The only positives the emergence of Stockdale , Timoney , and a hint of promise in Rea and Dalton . Cooney in my book is a real trier but as a scrum half he might be just eleven pence and not the full shilling . ( readable ,predictable and unable to up the tempo)

Unfortunately a new wave of backs , out half, centre, wings and full back to add depth to the squad have yet to surface on the grass at Ravenspan.

[Kofi Annan]

Yep, like Ruan getting shafted, Paddy & Stu being less important than BOI dosh, Les Kiss foisted upon us, and D4 not using due diligence when checking SLogan’s fairytale CV.
Totally all our own fault.

1. Ruan got two extensions to his contract. The fact that he wanted to see out his career here is neither here nor there. Decisions like that aren't always made with the player's wishes the primary concern. Ulster wanted to keep him, sure, but are you telling me that the decision to move John Cooney up here was a bad one?
2. Paddy and Stu are less important than BoI dosh. Sad fact, but that's professional sport for you these days. It's all about the brand, all about the money.
3. Les Kiss was a respected coach before he arrived here. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, though.
4. Logan's not the first person to ever blag his way into a job, but neither of us know who recommended him for the post, who supported his application, who spoke up for him. I don't think we're in a position, therefore, to pass comment on the efficacy of the IRFU's due diligence.
The idea that the IRFU is content for Ulster to fail is bollix. Self interest dictates that the IRFU wants to see 4 provinces being successful and providing squad strength in depth for the Ireland coach to pick from. The idea that coaches and administrators from the southern hemisphere jeopardise their own professional ambitions by buying into our parochial, provincial politics is beyond ridiculous.

4> Dick Milligan, you have been helped

[promenader 2]

Yep, like Ruan getting shafted, Paddy & Stu being less important than BOI dosh, Les Kiss foisted upon us, and D4 not using due diligence when checking SLogan’s fairytale CV.
Totally all our own fault.

1. Ruan got two extensions to his contract. The fact that he wanted to see out his career here is neither here nor there. Decisions like that aren't always made with the player's wishes the primary concern. Ulster wanted to keep him, sure, but are you telling me that the decision to move John Cooney up here was a bad one?
2. Paddy and Stu are less important than BoI dosh. Sad fact, but that's professional sport for you these days. It's all about the brand, all about the money.
3. Les Kiss was a respected coach before he arrived here. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, though.
4. Logan's not the first person to ever blag his way into a job, but neither of us know who recommended him for the post, who supported his application, who spoke up for him. I don't think we're in a position, therefore, to pass comment on the efficacy of the IRFU's due diligence.
The idea that the IRFU is content for Ulster to fail is bollix. Self interest dictates that the IRFU wants to see 4 provinces being successful and providing squad strength in depth for the Ireland coach to pick from. The idea that coaches and administrators from the southern hemisphere jeopardise their own professional ambitions by buying into our parochial, provincial politics is beyond ridiculous.

4> Dick Milligan, you have been helped

thanks

[Tender]

You’re right, I’m wrong.
The FIRFU have always treated us with fairness and have never been guilty of glaring double standards.

[BaggyTrousers]

And yesterday the National Union of Jounalists lodge a complaint against Ulster Rugby, journalists turning up and being denied access to the press conference.

Now why would a company with an image problem want to add to things with a bout of censorship?

Of course, it’s not the first time Ulster has tried to manipulate the agenda. Sad sack Les Kiss famously warned the sports hacks not to make anything of the fact that there were three players on the bench with over 200 caps each. Why you might ask? I suggest paranoia but hey, I’m no doctor, just an amateur shrink with a degree in “knowing my ar$e from my elbow”. He was performing at maximum twitch at the time, tics going crazy, bullshit flowing.

So it appears that when the pressure is on in a very public exercise Ulster Rugby try to manage what can and cannot be said or reported. Many organisations do it, why not? Well for one they need to communicate with a mass market and press and social media are the avenues.

The real reason of course is that Logan has lied several times about the recent dismissals, the fool has painted himself into a corner through his wish to be Billy Big Balls. He couldn’t resist twisting the knife and trying to be seen as the important man who made the decision, emphasising and inflating his own importance. He could have offered a tight lipped series of answers but was anxious to say he was kicking the two young gentlemen out and they’d be back over his dead body..... which sounds a perfect solution to me.

Like false complaints everywhere, to keep it going you need lie upon lie, digging deeper in your willingness to tell whoppers, a stranger to the truth. We all know that essentially, in all but delivery of their verdict, Bank of Ireland sacked the young gentlemen. Logan lied and now cannot recant without looking exactly the clown he is, hence, just as he attempted to close down all protest last Saturday he is attempting to exclude any journalist who will ask the obvious questions, questions he dare not answer, questions that will make his lies all the more transparent.

Maybe Terry is the wrong name, maybe Matilda should be the name.... you know Matilda, the whiny wee bitch who told dreadful lies.

[UlsterNo9]

Pinocchio might be better, an IRFU puppet, that tells lies.

[Cockatrice]

Pinocchio might be better, an IRFU puppet, that tells lies.

Like the one we have..

[Dave]

Logan doesn't want then in. The scant detail in the press release from the IRFU has left a lot of questions. Until they are answered they won't go away.

Logan out.

[rumncoke]

Baggy , I am not to sure I buy the BoI pressure story , The BoI only went public after the decision was made and before the decision became public, I fear it may be a smoke screen and a little bit of glory hunting on the part of the BoI.

My money would be on the deal was made with the various " Woman's Groups " who had been using the the trial as a Rallying device to forward a Political agenda , and regardless of the decision of the court were hell bent on maximising the opportunity .

The evidence to support this point of view is an article by Elaine Crory on sluggard O Toole who identifies that 5 Womans'groups in Belfast met several days before the decision of the Jury to consider how they would proceed after the decision was announced.

The fact that they met before the decision was announced would lead one to conclude that despite all there claims to "Ibelieveher " they in fact understood, like everyone else , based On Dara Florence's evidence and unreliability of the claimants evidence, no rape had occured. The point is also made that "these protests are not an agitation to overturn a legal verdict "
Although I am not convinced of that since the rallying call was "Ibelieveher" " Say no Misogyny in rugby etc rather than reform rape law., if that was their intention.

The second fact to support it was due to a possible agreement with these woman's groups, is the silence which has descend on the hordes since the announcement .

If the sacking of the players was not the intention of these Groups but the acceptance of their 5 demands as outlined in slugger O Toole -- Why the silence ? Why have the demands and accusations about Rugby and the IRFU ceased ?

Yes a review is now being under taking of how Rape trials should proceed but this was announced after the IRFU decision .

[Cockatrice]

Yep, like Ruan getting shafted, Paddy & Stu being less important than BOI dosh, Les Kiss foisted upon us, and D4 not using due diligence when checking SLogan’s fairytale CV.
Totally all our own fault.

1. Ruan got two extensions to his contract. The fact that he wanted to see out his career here is neither here nor there. Decisions like that aren't always made with the player's wishes the primary concern. Ulster wanted to keep him, sure, but are you telling me that the decision to move John Cooney up here was a bad one?
2. Paddy and Stu are less important than BoI dosh. Sad fact, but that's professional sport for you these days. It's all about the brand, all about the money.
3. Les Kiss was a respected coach before he arrived here. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, though.
4. Logan's not the first person to ever blag his way into a job, but neither of us know who recommended him for the post, who supported his application, who spoke up for him. I don't think we're in a position, therefore, to pass comment on the efficacy of the IRFU's due diligence.
The idea that the IRFU is content for Ulster to fail is bollix. Self interest dictates that the IRFU wants to see 4 provinces being successful and providing squad strength in depth for the Ireland coach to pick from. The idea that coaches and administrators from the southern hemisphere jeopardise their own professional ambitions by buying into our parochial, provincial politics is beyond ridiculous.

Is blagging (lying) on a CV not an offence? With Intregrity now the buzz word for the IRFU surely a sackable offence but then it may suit to have a puppet with strings..

[Rooster]

Baggy , I am not to sure I buy the BoI pressure story , The BoI only went public after the decision was made and before the decision became public, I fear it may be a smoke screen and a little bit of glory hunting on the part of the BoI.

My money would be on the deal was made with the various " Woman's Groups " who had been using the the trial as a Rallying device to forward a Political agenda , and regardless of the decision of the court were hell bent on maximising the opportunity .

The evidence to support this point of view is an article by Elaine Crory on sluggard O Toole who identifies that 5 Womans'groups in Belfast met several days before the decision of the Jury to consider how they would proceed after the decision was announced.

The fact that they met before the decision was announced would lead one to conclude that despite all there claims to "Ibelieveher " they in fact understood, like everyone else , based On Dara Florence's evidence and unreliability of the claimants evidence, no rape had occured. The point is also made that "these protests are not an agitation to overturn a legal verdict "
Although I am not convinced of that since the rallying call was "Ibelieveher" " Say no Misogyny in rugby etc rather than reform rape law., if that was their intention.

The second fact to support it was due to a possible agreement with these woman's groups, is the silence which has descend on the hordes since the announcement .

If the sacking of the players was not the intention of these Groups but the acceptance of their 5 demands as outlined in slugger O Toole -- Why the silence ? Why have the demands and accusations about Rugby and the IRFU ceased ?

Yes a review is now being under taking of how Rape trials should proceed but this was announced after the IRFU decision .

It is very simple rummy, those groups like all women's groups fell out with each other over the aims of the protest and subsequently the funding of a rape support centre plus some support the repeal of the 8th amendment in ROI and some are pro life supporters, next date in their diaries is 14th May at the gasworks Radisson when the Pro life ones are having a meeting and the repeal the 8th mob are going to protest at it.
So anyone who is free can go watch the bitchfest 7:00 9:30 pm

[promenader 2]

Yep, like Ruan getting shafted, Paddy & Stu being less important than BOI dosh, Les Kiss foisted upon us, and D4 not using due diligence when checking SLogan’s fairytale CV.
Totally all our own fault.

1. Ruan got two extensions to his contract. The fact that he wanted to see out his career here is neither here nor there. Decisions like that aren't always made with the player's wishes the primary concern. Ulster wanted to keep him, sure, but are you telling me that the decision to move John Cooney up here was a bad one?
2. Paddy and Stu are less important than BoI dosh. Sad fact, but that's professional sport for you these days. It's all about the brand, all about the money.
3. Les Kiss was a respected coach before he arrived here. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, though.
4. Logan's not the first person to ever blag his way into a job, but neither of us know who recommended him for the post, who supported his application, who spoke up for him. I don't think we're in a position, therefore, to pass comment on the efficacy of the IRFU's due diligence.
The idea that the IRFU is content for Ulster to fail is bollix. Self interest dictates that the IRFU wants to see 4 provinces being successful and providing squad strength in depth for the Ireland coach to pick from. The idea that coaches and administrators from the southern hemisphere jeopardise their own professional ambitions by buying into our parochial, provincial politics is beyond ridiculous.

Is blagging (lying) on a CV not an offence? With Intregrity now the buzz word for the IRFU surely a sackable offence but then it may suit to have a puppet with strings..

Too much of a focus on Logan, IMHO. He'll go at some point, but then what? He's been in post 6 years, so who do we blame for the lack of success before that? One Celtic League title in 2005/06 isn't much to shout about. There is a culture of failure at Ulster which pre dates Logan. We should be looking at that rather than wallowing in D4 conspiracy theories.