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Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:03 am
by Liz Fraser
kingofthehill wrote:I can’t remember an Ulster backline look so lost in attack never mind in defence.

Set piece plays (scrum mainly) from first phase was one of the joys of watching Ulster. Arguably in years gone by the best about from first phase.

Zero creativity currently and the common denominator is Peel.

Ulster are playing a winger in the centre, a winger at fullback, a centre at outhalf (will give that one a bye ball).

Peel is picking the backline,that is FACT. For me he doesn’t know his Brennan from his elbow.




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Great point from KOTH and I agree but not sure where to apportion blame for this.
As far as I am concerned first phase strike moves are a great chance to line break.
I see it as the one time you know exactly where the oppositon will be standing and you can fully organise and prepare a move to score or line break.
This is generally done through set up play so the first move or two will attack a specific area.
After that the defence sets it's self to that and the attack shapes to go there but hits a different area.
Its what I love about rugby playing like a game of chess, involving intelligence and subterfuge honed in on training.
This included lineouts back row moves and team plays.
Its the one opportunity 15 men know exactly where the ball is going and 15 players don't and that advantage has to be maximised each time.

However there is a disturbing trend in rugby where coaches see first play moves as a means to an end.
In other words they are simply looking to commit players bludgeon over gain lines to create front foot ball and therefore space and time to move the ball.in the subsequemt phases.
I see this as a touch of sledgehammer and nut as why would you do something in 5 phases that you could potentially do in one?
Why work out an opposition mentally when you can bludgeon them into submission?
Actually think it's lazy coaching. lacking ingenuity which is why I love the way Gregor Townsend goes about his work.

I think KOTH is on to something here and Ulster look like they have adopted this policy.
Really glad he is addressing attack as so much focus has been on defence.
We have only got away with this due to our individual attacking flair.
However like others not sure that the blame for this can be levelled entirely at Peels door.

Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:07 am
by SparkyClarky
Was totally underwhelmed at the time. Nothing has changed for me!
One year in the Championship was never enough experience. Then a 6/7 yr old playbook for backs and forwards thrown out this season with the gruesome twosome leaving hasn’t helped and with far from clear instruction replacing it? Confused.com isn’t even close.

At the start of the season everything just looked over complicated to me but the basics were lacking. Nothing is changing.

It’s just soul destroying as a fan watching at the moment. Just hoping tomorrow something clicks and The atmosphere is not likened to a mortuary from a fans point of view?

I would be delighted to see a strong Finnish to the season as I don’t believe Kiss will go until his contract is up no matter how noisy it gets.

Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:17 am
by Russ
BR wrote:Peel is (was always going to be) an apprentice coach. The masters must take responsibility.
I believe the apprentice turned out to be a meniacal mad man in a mask

Fecking qui gon

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Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:19 am
by Russ
You can only run strike moves when you secure first phase possession

We have a horrendous lineout and our tight 5 are not able to achieve parity in the scrum meaning the defense has 3 more players

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Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:23 am
by Gerald the Mole
Russ wrote:You can only run strike moves when you secure first phase possession

We have a horrendous lineout and our tight 5 are not able to achieve parity in the scrum meaning the defense has 3 more players

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So, who is responsible for that?

Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:25 am
by Russ
Gerald the Mole wrote:
Russ wrote:You can only run strike moves when you secure first phase possession

We have a horrendous lineout and our tight 5 are not able to achieve parity in the scrum meaning the defense has 3 more players

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So, who is responsible for that?
A combination of coaches including dundon amd gibbes
Then the players not executing

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Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:17 am
by Cornerfleg
Once again I see Liz has fair whacked the nail clean on the head.

The chasm between Kiss and Townsend is a massive indication that he is nowhere near the top table in coaching.

With similar if not slightly less tools to work with - the comparison of back play with Glasgow/Scotland and us is frankly embarrassing ... however it doesn't end there. I remember sometime ago being at a training session with a coach who knows what he's talking about and he said he hated preparing Ulster to play Glasgow, their speed onto the breakdown, their latching and ... legal (just) yet dominating body positions made even retaining your own ball at the breakdown difficult and fast ball extremely hard. This he put down to Gregor's instinctive total rugby brain.

If you want to go somewhere near the top of the modern game GT is a coach who you aim for.

Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:15 am
by ColinM
wonder where GT came in the worldwide ranking

Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:16 am
by Dave
This is all getting a bit hysterical. The backs HAVE been creative. They have been the get out of jail card against many a team. Despite having a shyte pack with very little front foot ball or any quick ball. I can actually see some improvements. McCloskey has a passing game now. The way Cooney has settled in, the way Stockdale has come on, Gilroy has returned in good form etc. There are good things amongst the shyte.

IF Peel is permitted to pick the backline without being challenged that is the fault of Kiss. He's on record as having final say and he is the DoR ffs.

How can you complain about play off the set piece with a straight face? I've never witnessed such poor scrummaging and lineouts have been utter dross.

I remember the turgid dross of doakball. Last year it was Gandalf ball with McCloskey going solo but you have to remember it is the 10 who calls the play from the set piece. Lele might be a centre in some people's eyes but he is the best 10 we have.

Les is the man at the top of the coaching tree. He must go.

FOUAFC

FOLK

Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:29 am
by Cornerfleg
I personally see very little in the way of decoy lines or slick interplay ... it's all a bit use the drag back ball and hope Cube or Charlie can get round the outside.

From what I have seen Stu is getting more and more like a black hole ... nothing escapes form his grip ... not even light never mind a pass.

Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:38 am
by rumncoke
Although Ulster have the backs to score trys few are off set plays whereas most of Leinster's trys come from set plays especially from line outs sometimes on the first play sometimes on the second but usually by ensuring that there opponents back row has been nullified ( legally and illegally )

Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:06 pm
by Dave
Cornerfleg wrote:I personally see very little in the way of decoy lines or slick interplay ... it's all a bit use the drag back ball and hope Cube or Charlie can get round the outside.

From what I have seen Stu is getting more and more like a black hole ... nothing escapes form his grip ... not even light never mind a pass.
I've seen decoy lines used plenty. Slick interplay? Not sure what you mean but because every other team is using rushing linespeed you cannot use the set plays straight off the training paddock (to quote Ryan Constable). In the modern game most attacking play comes from turnover ball. This is mostly generated by quick linespeed putting the opposition under pressure. A good defence is a great source for attack. That allows opportunity for Cube and Charlie get around the outside or up the middle.

See how Leinster played against us. Darren Cave gets stripped in contact while we are attacking their line. They get quick ball against a defence that is not set. Darren Cave comes round and gets battered by Porter. They are in for the score.

At a guess, McCloskey is a getting about 9/10 carries and about 8/9 passes per game this season. Last season it was about 2 passes to 18 carries. He might be shyte but he is passing more. Check the stats, I might be wrong.

Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:16 pm
by BR
rumncoke wrote:Although Ulster have the backs to score trys few are off set plays whereas most of Leinster's trys come from set plays especially from line outs sometimes on the first play sometimes on the second but usually by ensuring that there opponents back row has been nullified ( legally and illegally )


Trys??? We don't even make yards off set plays. Our only +ve yardage is from the individual flair of our backs. Fortunately something we see plenty of, but rarely in consecutive phases.

Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:31 pm
by jean valjean
As BOD keeps saying there are no such things as a decoy runner, they have to be an option for a pass as well in order to keep the defence interested. Too often we send someone up who clear as day isn't going to get the ball, which makes it so easy for the defender to ignore them and move to the next carrier. Janny the loop gets slagged a lot but at least there is some variation to leinsters game and it is done much closer to the gain line. At least we have a settled backline .

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Re: Peel = Howley

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:38 pm
by Tender
Wow there Nellie.
Rewind a bit. Substitute Doak'n'Clarke for Peel'n'Gibbes with a little Dundon thrown in and we're right back to last season. Back then we gowled and gulldered for their heads, only to realise late in the game, it was all Kiss.
Let's not allow ourselves to get deflected again . Kiss isn't gonna allow a newbie like Peel pick the back line, without both his own input and final say. There isn't a coach in the World who would rely on a greenhorn to do a job which could have such a huge impact on his own future employment.
Kiss goes first . Kiss goes first. Kiss goes first.