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Peel = Howley

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby BR » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:01 pm

Tender wrote:Wow there Nellie.
Rewind a bit. Substitute Doak'n'Clarke for Peel'n'Gibbes with a little Dundon thrown in and we're right back to last season. Back then we gowled and gulldered for their heads, only to realise late in the game, it was all Kiss.
Let's not allow ourselves to get deflected again . Kiss isn't gonna allow a newbie like Peel pick the back line, without both his own input and final say. There isn't a coach in the World who would rely on a greenhorn to do a job which could have such a huge impact on his own future employment.
Kiss goes first . Kiss goes first. Kiss goes first.


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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Tender » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:04 pm

I tend to.
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby boringperson12 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:21 pm

You can't polish a turd. Sometimes you can make it smell a little better, but never will you make it have a golden glimmer.
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Liz Fraser » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:36 pm

Dave wrote:This is all getting a bit hysterical. The backs HAVE been creative. They have been the get out of jail card against many a team. Despite having a shyte pack with very little front foot ball or any quick ball. I can actually see some improvements. McCloskey has a passing game now. The way Cooney has settled in, the way Stockdale has come on, Gilroy has returned in good form etc. There are good things amongst the shyte.

IF Peel is permitted to pick the backline without being challenged that is the fault of Kiss. He's on record as having final say and he is the DoR ffs.

How can you complain about play off the set piece with a straight face? I've never witnessed such poor scrummaging and lineouts have been utter dross.

I remember the turgid dross of doakball. Last year it was Gandalf ball with McCloskey going solo but you have to remember it is the 10 who calls the play from the set piece. Lele might be a centre in some people's eyes but he is the best 10 we have.

Les is the man at the top of the coaching tree. He must go.

FOUAFC

FOLK

Dave.
The fact is we don't look at strike plays for scoring tries but are looking at them as a means to an end which I won't repeat from my first post.
Your argument doesn't hold water as you are saying that our general set piece is poor.
Yetbthe one area of Ulsters play generally acknowledged to have improved upon is scrumaging, one half against Munster asides.
Ideal strike move territory as the oppositon are 5 metres back and tied in.
Relying on multiphase ball and turnovers to score relies on quicker ball and breakdown expertise which we haven't got.

Notice also we aren't scoring that much of late.
We rely on the individual skills of our wide men to score and the oppositon now realise if they simply hit and spread because they won't have the room to operate as there is no ball carrying threat through the middle.
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Dave » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:50 pm

Liz Fraser wrote:
Dave wrote:This is all getting a bit hysterical. The backs HAVE been creative. They have been the get out of jail card against many a team. Despite having a shyte pack with very little front foot ball or any quick ball. I can actually see some improvements. McCloskey has a passing game now. The way Cooney has settled in, the way Stockdale has come on, Gilroy has returned in good form etc. There are good things amongst the shyte.

IF Peel is permitted to pick the backline without being challenged that is the fault of Kiss. He's on record as having final say and he is the DoR ffs.

How can you complain about play off the set piece with a straight face? I've never witnessed such poor scrummaging and lineouts have been utter dross.

I remember the turgid dross of doakball. Last year it was Gandalf ball with McCloskey going solo but you have to remember it is the 10 who calls the play from the set piece. Lele might be a centre in some people's eyes but he is the best 10 we have.

Les is the man at the top of the coaching tree. He must go.

FOUAFC

FOLK

Dave.
The fact is we don't look at strike plays for scoring tries but are looking at them as a means to an end which I won't repeat from my first post.
Your argument doesn't hold water as you are saying that our general set piece is poor.
Yetbthe one area of Ulsters play generally acknowledged to have improved upon is scrumaging, one half against Munster asides.
Ideal strike move territory as the oppositon are 5 metres back and tied in.
Relying on multiphase ball and turnovers to score relies on quicker ball and breakdown expertise which we haven't got.

Notice also we aren't scoring that much of late.
We rely on the individual skills of our wide men to score and the oppositon now realise if they simply hit and spread because they won't have the room to operate as there is no ball carrying threat through the middle.


Liz,

I don't really see that we are disagreeing a whole lot. I take your points. I haven't really presented an argument just some points to consider. I agree with your initial assessment regarding being unsure where to apportion blame. Les is known to be a micromanaging type of DoR. Shots could be fired at Gibbes just as easily.
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Liz Fraser » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:55 pm

jean valjean wrote:As BOD keeps saying there are no such things as a decoy runner, they have to be an option for a pass as well in order to keep the defence interested. Too often we send someone up who clear as day isn't going to get the ball, which makes it so easy for the defender to ignore them and move to the next carrier. Janny the loop gets slagged a lot but at least there is some variation to leinsters game and it is done much closer to the gain line. At least we have a settled backline .

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That's weird about BOD because I've heard him go into detail about set up plays which deliberately ultises decoy runners.
Decoy runners job is to sell the move and convince the oppositon they are getting the ball.
The reciever does the opposite and that's the idea and deception through body language and previous plays.
For a decoy runner to convince the oppositon he is getting the ball when he actually gets it makes obviously no sense.

However I don't think players run the same lines so positively if they don't know whether they are getting the ball or not.
I personally believe off first phase that "decoys" along with designated strike runners should be the employed and thereafter it's all about the options as BOD apparently describes, where defences are less organised.
This is becomes more about holding defences and creating room in limited space.

I just believe to refuse to use strike moves off first phase is denying a side genuine opportunity to line break and score when time and space is on offer.
Last edited by Liz Fraser on Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Liz Fraser » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:58 pm

Dave wrote:
Liz Fraser wrote:
Dave wrote:This is all getting a bit hysterical. The backs HAVE been creative. They have been the get out of jail card against many a team. Despite having a shyte pack with very little front foot ball or any quick ball. I can actually see some improvements. McCloskey has a passing game now. The way Cooney has settled in, the way Stockdale has come on, Gilroy has returned in good form etc. There are good things amongst the shyte.

IF Peel is permitted to pick the backline without being challenged that is the fault of Kiss. He's on record as having final say and he is the DoR ffs.

How can you complain about play off the set piece with a straight face? I've never witnessed such poor scrummaging and lineouts have been utter dross.

I remember the turgid dross of doakball. Last year it was Gandalf ball with McCloskey going solo but you have to remember it is the 10 who calls the play from the set piece. Lele might be a centre in some people's eyes but he is the best 10 we have.

Les is the man at the top of the coaching tree. He must go.

FOUAFC

FOLK

Dave.
The fact is we don't look at strike plays for scoring tries but are looking at them as a means to an end which I won't repeat from my first post.
Your argument doesn't hold water as you are saying that our general set piece is poor.
Yetbthe one area of Ulsters play generally acknowledged to have improved upon is scrumaging, one half against Munster asides.
Ideal strike move territory as the oppositon are 5 metres back and tied in.
Relying on multiphase ball and turnovers to score relies on quicker ball and breakdown expertise which we haven't got.

Notice also we aren't scoring that much of late.
We rely on the individual skills of our wide men to score and the oppositon now realise if they simply hit and spread because they won't have the room to operate as there is no ball carrying threat through the middle.


Liz,

I don't really see that we are disagreeing a whole lot. I take your points. I haven't really presented an argument just some points to consider. I agree with your initial assessment regarding being unsure where to apportion blame. Les is known to be a micromanaging type of DoR. Shots could be fired at Gibbes just as easily.

Fair play Dave literal or metaphorical shots?
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Dave » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:02 pm

Liz Fraser wrote:Fair play Dave literal or metaphorical shots?


Has he been officially welcomed til Belfast yet?
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Cornerfleg » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:09 pm

Liz Fraser wrote:
jean valjean wrote:As BOD keeps saying there are no such things as a decoy runner, they have to be an option for a pass as well in order to keep the defence interested. Too often we send someone up who clear as day isn't going to get the ball, which makes it so easy for the defender to ignore them and move to the next carrier. Janny the loop gets slagged a lot but at least there is some variation to leinsters game and it is done much closer to the gain line. At least we have a settled backline .

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

That's weird about BOD because I've heard him go into detail about set up plays which deliberately ultises decoy runners.
Decoy runners job is to sell the move and convince the oppositon they are getting the ball.
The recievers does the opposite and that's the idea and deception through body language and previous plays.
For a decoy runner to convince the oppositon he is getting the ball when he actually gets it makes obviously no sense.

However I don't think players run the same lines so positively if they don't know if they are getting the ball or not.
I personally believe off first phase that "decoys" along with designated strike runners should be the employed and thereafter it's all about the options as BOD apparently describes, where defences are less organised.


I actually feel you are both spot on ... most people call them decoys so lets not argue about semantics here. A Decoy is only useful if he fixes the defence, a very astute defender will quickly realise if a Decoy runner is ahead of the pass, and 100% unlikely to get the ball ... We have tended to use decoys in phase play appallingly ... not accelerating and usually some Dave like Ah Feck or Big Licence who even if they do get it and attack a soft shoulder they'll probably drop it.

Has Cooney the 'balls' to actually feed the short ball if he sees the defence drifting off the "Decoy" - that to me is the question - is everyone in a set move looking for a pass or do the Decoys have no intention whatsoever of getting one even if is against the call but the feeder spies the space opening up. (Dave that's what I mean by slick play) we go through or strike moves by rote, now by definition I know that's what they should do - but I years ago I went to a training session with the Warratahs when they were over here, they tried to promote at phase play or open play there should be at least 2 if not 4 options all viable at the same time, and if you weren't ready for a pass - it was your fault - Our play looks pedantic and the score lines and results suggests reasonably easy to defend especially if it's a fast defensive line.
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Dave » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:42 pm

Cornerfleg wrote:
Liz Fraser wrote:
jean valjean wrote:As BOD keeps saying there are no such things as a decoy runner, they have to be an option for a pass as well in order to keep the defence interested. Too often we send someone up who clear as day isn't going to get the ball, which makes it so easy for the defender to ignore them and move to the next carrier. Janny the loop gets slagged a lot but at least there is some variation to leinsters game and it is done much closer to the gain line. At least we have a settled backline .

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

That's weird about BOD because I've heard him go into detail about set up plays which deliberately ultises decoy runners.
Decoy runners job is to sell the move and convince the oppositon they are getting the ball.
The recievers does the opposite and that's the idea and deception through body language and previous plays.
For a decoy runner to convince the oppositon he is getting the ball when he actually gets it makes obviously no sense.

However I don't think players run the same lines so positively if they don't know if they are getting the ball or not.
I personally believe off first phase that "decoys" along with designated strike runners should be the employed and thereafter it's all about the options as BOD apparently describes, where defences are less organised.


I actually feel you are both spot on ... most people call them decoys so lets not argue about semantics here. A Decoy is only useful if he fixes the defence, a very astute defender will quickly realise if a Decoy runner is ahead of the pass, and 100% unlikely to get the ball ... We have tended to use decoys in phase play appallingly ... not accelerating and usually some Dave like Ah Feck or Big Licence who even if they do get it and attack a soft shoulder they'll probably drop it.

Has Cooney the 'balls' to actually feed the short ball if he sees the defence drifting off the "Decoy" - that to me is the question - is everyone in a set move looking for a pass or do the Decoys have no intention whatsoever of getting one even if is against the call but the feeder spies the space opening up. (Dave that's what I mean by slick play) we go through or strike moves by rote, now by definition I know that's what they should do - but I years ago I went to a training session with the Warratahs when they were over here, they tried to promote at phase play or open play there should be at least 2 if not 4 options all viable at the same time, and if you weren't ready for a pass - it was your fault - Our play looks pedantic and the score lines and results suggests reasonably easy to defend especially if it's a fast defensive line.
Fleg for DoR!!!!!!
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Liz Fraser » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:45 pm

Yep I agree fleg.
Lets take a simple play like Dummy scissors miss.
1. 10 spots space and goes
2. 10 and 12 scissors
3. 10 dummy 12 and hits 13.
4. 10 dummies 12 and misses 13.
One basic play 4 moves similar lines required for each.

Set up play example.
Move 1 -miss pass behind player to 2nd reciever behind first line with a view to out flanking blitz.
1st reciever has to over run the 10 to catch the eye early and hold the oppositon.

Next move-10 shaping and looking to do same move but hitting 1st man flat.
The first player has to know he is getting it as his line is marginally later.
Otherwise he will over run the play.

This is exactly what Sexton did with George for the line break that led to the Murray try in the 2nd Lions test.
George had to know he was getting the ball or he would have over run Sexton.
Further more that move only worked as the ball had gone behind the first reciever in the plays beforehand.
A set up if you will.

I think generic simple plays such as dsp can have options run during phase play.
However the Sexton George combo is just one instance when more complex plays can't have options off it as specific lines and timings are required for a move to work.
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby BaggyTrousers » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:51 pm

Just one thing to partially disagree with Liz, it very much depends on who is propping to discuss the quality of our scrum. We have some utter rubbish and not one all round quality prop. McCall has been a huge disappointment this season as has tomorrow's bench lad whose name is escaping me right now, Black has been the puck of the bunch and Herbst can usually but not always scrum. Rodders??? It is more solid with Rory there and I think they had to put Hendy in with AO'C.

But that said, the scrum has indeed been better than last season.
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Dave » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:54 pm

More points:
At the meet the coach/players event in the summer FOLK said that he would be coaching overall strategy. (Les at fault)
It is the 10 who calls the play off a set piece. (Lele at fault)
Les also stated numerous times that the players didn't follow the plan. (Players at fault)
Dwayne picks the backs on his own. (Dwayne out).
Pack is mince. (Jono at fault).
Players are mince. (Bryn at fault).
Tea is shyte. (Ethel at fault).

It's everyone's fault bar Logie.

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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Liz Fraser » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:03 pm

BaggyTrousers wrote:Just one thing to partially disagree with Liz, it very much depends on who is propping to discuss the quality of our scrum. We have some utter rubbish and not one all round quality prop. McCall has been a huge disappointment this season as has tomorrow's bench lad whose name is escaping me right now, Black has been the puck of the bunch and Herbst can usually but not always scrum. Rodders??? It is more solid with Rory there and I think they had to put Hendy in with AO'C.

But that said, the scrum has indeed been better than last season.

No I totally agree Baggy.
Black and Herbst have been as excellent at scrum time as the others have been poor.
Think the Munster game proved that for all to see.
If the scrum is solid it's a real opportunity to strike but as KOTH points out we aren't doing it and fast running out of other opportunities to do so.

Dave you can't blame Ethel for the quality of tea.
Other tea bags were sold out and she's had to make do with the best available.
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Re: Peel = Howley

Postby Snipe Watson » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:07 pm

Can a chap not enjoy his sabbatical without having to correct egregious errors?

In discussing decoy runners and the like we're missing the point. Notwithstanding the apparently random selection policy in the backline, particularly at centre, debating the quality of our backline play is a distraction, because our bad back play is a symptom, not the root of the problem.

We rarely gain parity at the breakdown and that is the long and short of it. Our tackling is weak and our contesting of the ball lacks aggression (It reeks of rugby league). Too many carry badly with poor technique and they don’t protect the ball in contact. We’re too easy to stop, slow down and turn over.

Poor with the ball and poor without the ball, resulting in knock-ons, turnovers and slow ball. Any backline in the world would struggle under those circumstances playing with bad ball and continually on the back foot.
Until the forwards start to do their jobs effectively, we will be second or third rate. Once they supply the backs with consistently decent ball and at speed, the backs will rediscover their mojo and we can go places. Otherwise expect more of the same.
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