Who Really is to Blame

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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby WhiteKnightoftheWeld » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:54 pm

thecrouch wrote:You say you don't doubt the players effort. I disagree, I doubt it. Are they giving 100% week in, week out? The performances suggest they are not. They lack the determination and the grit. Munster fans love to bleat on about pashun and pride, Ulster lack it in abundance.

I think there is a lack of ruthlessness, that absolute desire to win that you see in other provinces. We are mentally fragile. I think too many Ulster players think they've made it as soon as they're given their Ulster tracksuit and their free motor. There needs to be a shift in the mentality; that you're nothing until you've got the medals to show for it. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

Whose job is it to fix these issues? It's Kiss's job. It is up to him to deliver the harsh message that our players require. Is he capable of doing that? I'm not sure. I suspect Kiss actually is a decent coach, after all he has shown it when he worked in D4, but he is the wrong man at the wrong time for Ulster. He's too nice.

At the same time, is replacing Kiss going to solve Ulster's problems? No way, the problems are way too deep. The players themselves need to address their attitude issues and think long and hard about themselves. Do they really want to be seen as the bunch of perennial losers that Ulster has become? The CEO needs to stop trying to turn Ulster into a wee night out for the middle class and realise that the rugby should be first and foremost. People turn up to Ravenhill for a laugh and they aren't overly bothered about the match itself. This leads to a general malaise about the place, the players feel they'll enjoy their semi-celebrity status no matter what's happening on the field.

The players also need to shut up talking to the press and do their talking on the pitch. I don't give a stuff if you are hurting after a previous defeat, I don't give a stuff if you are working harder than ever, I don't give a stuff if you are intensely focused on the next match. What you say and what you do are two different things. Rather than telling us this waffle show us. String together some good performances and show us that you're building towards something. Right now we don't look like we're building, we look like we're rubbish. The players should be embarrassed about that.

Also, the fact remains that Ulster just has too many substandard players. We end up relying on these players too often and it hurts us. The dysfunction of the academy has contributed to this. The amount of absolute dross foreign players we have signed in recent years is absolutely staggering. It's time to get a functioning academy that produces competent Ulster men to play for Ulster. Foreign players should be signed to complement what we have and bring it to the next level.

The committees that run Ulster Rugby need to take a long look at themselves. Are they really the right people to be giving input on professional rugby in Ulster?

And Ulster need to find ourselves an absolute bar steward of a head coach. Someone to light a fire under our squad, to cut the dross and instill some good old fashioned grit into our players. If you're too soft you get shown the door. Someone who won't make things seem nice and fluffy. Ulster are looking for their Michael Cheika who addressed Leinster's ladyboy problem.


What garbage.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Dave » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:55 pm

Russ wrote:Whoever goes needs to take that twunt band with them

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This.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Dave » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:56 pm

Nice come back Welder. Stick around for a bit.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby thecrouch » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:58 pm

WhiteKnightoftheWeld wrote:
thecrouch wrote:You say you don't doubt the players effort. I disagree, I doubt it. Are they giving 100% week in, week out? The performances suggest they are not. They lack the determination and the grit. Munster fans love to bleat on about pashun and pride, Ulster lack it in abundance.

I think there is a lack of ruthlessness, that absolute desire to win that you see in other provinces. We are mentally fragile. I think too many Ulster players think they've made it as soon as they're given their Ulster tracksuit and their free motor. There needs to be a shift in the mentality; that you're nothing until you've got the medals to show for it. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

Whose job is it to fix these issues? It's Kiss's job. It is up to him to deliver the harsh message that our players require. Is he capable of doing that? I'm not sure. I suspect Kiss actually is a decent coach, after all he has shown it when he worked in D4, but he is the wrong man at the wrong time for Ulster. He's too nice.

At the same time, is replacing Kiss going to solve Ulster's problems? No way, the problems are way too deep. The players themselves need to address their attitude issues and think long and hard about themselves. Do they really want to be seen as the bunch of perennial losers that Ulster has become? The CEO needs to stop trying to turn Ulster into a wee night out for the middle class and realise that the rugby should be first and foremost. People turn up to Ravenhill for a laugh and they aren't overly bothered about the match itself. This leads to a general malaise about the place, the players feel they'll enjoy their semi-celebrity status no matter what's happening on the field.

The players also need to shut up talking to the press and do their talking on the pitch. I don't give a stuff if you are hurting after a previous defeat, I don't give a stuff if you are working harder than ever, I don't give a stuff if you are intensely focused on the next match. What you say and what you do are two different things. Rather than telling us this waffle show us. String together some good performances and show us that you're building towards something. Right now we don't look like we're building, we look like we're rubbish. The players should be embarrassed about that.

Also, the fact remains that Ulster just has too many substandard players. We end up relying on these players too often and it hurts us. The dysfunction of the academy has contributed to this. The amount of absolute dross foreign players we have signed in recent years is absolutely staggering. It's time to get a functioning academy that produces competent Ulster men to play for Ulster. Foreign players should be signed to complement what we have and bring it to the next level.

The committees that run Ulster Rugby need to take a long look at themselves. Are they really the right people to be giving input on professional rugby in Ulster?

And Ulster need to find ourselves an absolute bar steward of a head coach. Someone to light a fire under our squad, to cut the dross and instill some good old fashioned grit into our players. If you're too soft you get shown the door. Someone who won't make things seem nice and fluffy. Ulster are looking for their Michael Cheika who addressed Leinster's ladyboy problem.


What garbage.
>bs


Well argued, you clearly know what you’re talking about anyway.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby therealspratt » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:00 pm

Kiss is broadly useless but it does go deeper than him, the culture as a whole is off throughout the squad. You're dead on Crouchy.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Neil F » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:02 pm

therealspratt wrote:Kiss is broadly useless but it does go deeper than him, the culture as a whole is off throughout the squad. You're dead on Crouchy.


What I don't get is this continued instance from some that the "culture... throughout the squad" is somehow detached from coaching / management staff and the values they instil in that squad.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby therealspratt » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:05 pm

Neil F wrote:
therealspratt wrote:Kiss is broadly useless but it does go deeper than him, the culture as a whole is off throughout the squad. You're dead on Crouchy.


What I don't get is this continued instance from some that the "culture... throughout the squad" is somehow detached from coaching / management staff and the values they instil in that squad.

Oh certainly, it isn't, at least not entirely. I wonder though are some of them too far gone?

We need more than just a talented coach, we need one who change the whole ethos of the squad and that could be hard to come by.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby rumncoke » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:11 pm

Kiss is an unlucky Coach the only quality player in the back row has been injured for 2 years his second best ( Henry ) is similarly afflicted frequently by injury .
Then add in the loss of two players to an outstanding legal matter and his best back to head aches he has definitely not been blessed by luck .

As Napoleon said give me lucky generals .

As others have pointed out he then selects Mix and Match back lines which hardly provide any basis to create the understanding necessary for a strong defence and as pointed out by someone else defence is not down to individuals it requires team work

Please someone locate a lucky général forget the structures the committees aren’t on the pitch.

It is like buying the idea that politicians can fix the NHS

Finite resources will never match infinite demand .
That the BBC consider waiting lists growing is news defeats me when the waiting lists start to fall will be news but I don’t expect to hear it my life time .


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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Neil F » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:15 pm

There are players in the Ulster squad who were probably too far gone before they arrived in Belfast... Some are struggling because, as much as it pains me to say it, they are now past it and age has taken its toll. Others, genuinely, I think are just struggling in the current setup. Put another way, at least some players' attitude problem is temporary, based on what we've seen from them before, and they're certainly not going to get better under a coach who appears to be (partly) responsible for, and potentially accepting of, such attitudes.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby 222toHounslow » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:22 pm

I’ll be honest, I skipped Rums post, life’s too short.

Will getting rid of Kiss fix everything, nobody here is dumb enough to believe that but it’s a start.

On the question of blame, it’s bloody well not the fans fault. Should we accept nice guys and mediocrity or actually call shyte as shyte?
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby thecrouch » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:23 pm

Neil F wrote:
therealspratt wrote:Kiss is broadly useless but it does go deeper than him, the culture as a whole is off throughout the squad. You're dead on Crouchy.


What I don't get is this continued instance from some that the "culture... throughout the squad" is somehow detached from coaching / management staff and the values they instil in that squad.

It's not, but it's foolish to think replacing Kiss alone will solve the problem.

Look at how many coaches we've gone through with nothing to show for it. We were bridesmaids before Kiss too.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Cockatrice » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:42 pm

222toHounslow wrote:I’ll be honest, I skipped Rums post, life’s too short.

Will getting rid of Kiss fix everything, nobody here is dumb enough to believe that but it’s a start.

On the question of blame, it’s bloody well not the fans fault. Should we accept nice guys and mediocrity or actually call shyte as shyte?


Twice recently I had occasion to speak to someone within the corridors of power at UR (yes some of them do speak to me) and I simply said it as it was when two names came up (for the record not Kiss and not Logan) that they were a waste of a contract.. the answer was but they are nice guys... until someone gets over signing nice guys because they are nice guys and because that go to the same church we will continue this same conversation and not move forward one bit. .
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Amiga500 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:43 pm

thecrouch wrote:Also, the fact remains that Ulster just has too many substandard players. We end up relying on these players too often and it hurts us. The dysfunction of the academy has contributed to this. The amount of absolute dross foreign players we have signed in recent years is absolutely staggering. It's time to get a functioning academy that produces competent Ulster men to play for Ulster. Foreign players should be signed to complement what we have and bring it to the next level.


Ultimately, it really all boils down to this.

If we'd a raft of really good players, the coaches could demand high standards and the players would gravitate to high standard by an almost Darwinian process - as they (Leinster) have realistic alternatives they can put into the team and they could become long term 1st choices.

Say your a Leinster player in 2nd or back row. You know you can't take it easy - in either training or matches - as you've a load of fellas chomping at the bit to come on, and they are every bit as good as you and good enough to do a job at the highest levels.

Say your in the same position for Ulster - you look around you. A few average-enough kids and Robbie Diack are the alternative. Do you really feel the need to bust your balls?


The jobs for the boys culture over the last 20 years has really f**ked up UR.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Neil F » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:44 pm

Ulster were bridesmaids under McLaughlin when they lost to a much better Leinster side in a Heineken Cup Final.

Ulster were bridesmaids under Anscombe when they, narrowly, lost a Pro12 final that, probably, hinged on the bizarre decision by UR to let a "home" final be held at the home of the opposition at the #ourDS.

Under Kiss, Ulster haven't played knock-out rugby. Ulster are no longer bridesmaids. Right now, Ulster hasn't even been invited to the hen party.

Will jettisoning Kiss turn Ulster into serious contenders for silverware? Probably not. Might jettisoning him give Ulster a realistic chance of avoiding a 7/8 place playoff for meaningful European Rugby next season, in a league with eight Tom Kite teams (excluding Ulster) in it? Probably. Kiss won't solve any of Ulster's problems. Getting rid of him won't solve them all. It doesn't mean he, himself, isn't one of those problems.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby BR » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:52 pm

At this point it has to be about stopping the rot.
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