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Who Really is to Blame

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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Who Really is to Blame

Postby Polly Cotton » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:11 am

For the situation that we as a club find ourself into day. I have watche on this board and in the stands the unwarranted bile thrown out at players and staff.

Les Kiss : is it all his responsibility ? I do not believe it is, there is in my observation a very large management team , why is this failing and why do the fans solely point their anger and angst towards him, he may coach the defence, but he is not the ones slipping of tackles, or not being positionally in place, Nor defending at a maul, or a misfiring Line out.

Players: we all have opinions here, but the personal abuse is pretty poor. I do not question the players effort, I do question what is wrong , is it mental, is it faith.

Organisation: there really needs a review at the top, thus would include the committee men who are happy to take the free trip with their parasite partners , I note some are being named, that's good , they will now flex their muscular blazers and act, they cannot afford to miss a free trip to France. I do not believe that Mr Logan is fit for purpose. He is the leader of the band and it's all not in synch.

Fans: do we expect to much ? Or do we deserve better. I find that all clubs go through a poor cycle, it just happens to now be us, why are we demanding the sacking of a coach like a bunch of Arsenal supporters.

I shall be there Sat, like most of you here. We will rant if we lose and celebrate if we win, until the next game. ME I am happy to see how the year pans out.

Bad Luck: is there such thing or is luck good or bad self inflicted.
Last edited by Polly Cotton on Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Russ » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:26 am

Please give examples of bile

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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Polly Cotton » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:30 am

Russ wrote:Please give examples of bile

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Personal abuse , interestingly this came mainly from a women in the stand. But there was men as well throwing the odd comment, but abuse towards players is uncalled for.

I recall the abuse Reid and McCall got and this was worse.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Russ » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:34 am

Polly Cotton wrote:
Russ wrote:Please give examples of bile

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Personal abuse , interestingly this came mainly from a women in the stand. But there was men as well throwing the odd comment, but abuse towards players is uncalled for.

I recall the abuse Reid and McCall got and this was worse.
Disgraceful

Any idea what they were saying?

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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Rooster » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:39 am

Polly Cotton wrote:
Russ wrote:Please give examples of bile

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Personal abuse , interestingly this came mainly from a women in the stand. But there was men as well throwing the odd comment, but abuse towards players is uncalled for.

I recall the abuse Reid and McCall got and this was worse.
I personally heard the abuse McCall got that made him leave and without knowing what you heard this woman say it was not as bad or threatening.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Polly Cotton » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:50 am

Rooster wrote:
Polly Cotton wrote:
Russ wrote:Please give examples of bile

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Personal abuse , interestingly this came mainly from a women in the stand. But there was men as well throwing the odd comment, but abuse towards players is uncalled for.

I recall the abuse Reid and McCall got and this was worse.
I personally heard the abuse McCall got that made him leave and without knowing what you heard this woman say it was not as bad or threatening.


It was, anyway, the abuse is only a part of the post, who is to blame?
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Dave » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:51 am

It is the defensive system that is causing confusion and chaos. Leinster played with linespeed we didn't. Which system is right/wrong? All defence coach gurus insist on linespeed no matter what system you play. As Gustard states: " it covers a multitude of sins". Also the idea of one player missing a tackle is ideologically wrong. It is the team that missed the tackle.

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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Polly Cotton » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:53 am

Dave wrote:It is the defensive system that is causing confusion and chaos. Leinster played with linespeed we didn't. Which system is right/wrong? All defence coach gurus insist on linespeed no matter what system you play. As Gustard states: " it covers a multitude of sins". Also the idea of one player missing a tackle is ideologically wrong. It is the team that missed the tackle.

https://youtu.be/OJencUYieiU

Interesting Dave. You may be on the money there.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby caledoniancelt » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:53 am

Polly Cotton wrote:For the situation that we as a club find ourself into day. I have watche on this board and in the stands the unwarranted bile thrown out at players and staff.

Les Kiss : is it all his responsibility ? I do not believe it is, there is in my observation a very large management team , why is this failing and why do the fans solely point their anger and angst towards him, he may coach the defence, but he is not the ones slipping of tackles, or not being positionally in place, Nor defending at a maul, or a misfiring Line out.

Players: we all have opinions here, but the personal abuse is pretty poor. I do not question the players effort, I do question what is wrong , is it mental, is it faith.

Organisation: there really needs a review at the top, thus would include the committee men who are happy to take the free trip with their parasite partners , I note some are being named, that's good , they will now flex their muscular blazers and act, they cannot afford to miss a free trip to France. I do not believe that Mr Logan is fit for purpose. He is the leader of the band and it's all not in synch.

Fans: do we expect to much ? Or do we deserve better. I find that all clubs go through a poor cycle, it just happens to now be us, why are we demanding the sacking of a coach like a bunch of Arsenal supporters.

I shall be there Sat, like most of you here. We will rant if we lose and celebrate if we win, until the next game. ME I am happy to see how the year pans out.

Bad Luck: is there such thing or is luck good or bad self inflicted.



Kiss has to go. He is delusional, giving rambling weird comments before and after every match which are not easily understood. His last claim that Ulster aren't far off Leinster is total crap, we are light years away from the Ladyboys current standard of play. He cannot select a team that allows form players to play in their best position and allow a settled team to achieve some decent level of consistent good form. He is totally out of his depth and if he is our defence coach it's obvious that he hasn't a clue about his alleged specialist field.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby boringperson12 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:25 am

Not only Kiss is delusional. So are most of the fans plus quite a few of the players. Big fish, small pond.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby BaggyTrousers » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:17 am

I have it on good authority that Les wears Polly Cotton pyjamas.

LOOK ........... we all know Polly that we have arseholes in the stands, on the terrace, in the coaching booth, in the CEO's office and probably on every committee that ever sat on a company board throughout the known Universe.

I assume you are not suggesting that there is no point in sacking one man, that we actually need to sack everybody, for Polly dear that would just be fu@king stupid, right?

The immediate problem, as distinct from structural problems within the organisation, manifests itself on the pitch. Kiss hit the nail on the head saying consistency is a major problem, yet he is the major cause of it, his selection, his random treatment of various players, his insistence of playing people out of position when no injury dictates that its necessary.

So the immediate answer is to sack Kiss.

The larger question, Polly dearest, is not something that the common herd assembled here can answer for the good and sufficient reason that they have no idea what the layers at work are, how the CEO can be impeached, etc etc.

So take my advice Polly, don't ask that question if you know how the whole thing works, give us chapter and verse rather than throwing this open to the class expecting a sane answer.

I think we all know that Mr Logan is an issue simply because the buck stops on his desk, not many will know who or why others may need to be removed amongst the suits.

There now, talk amongst yourselves. :D
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Gary » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:31 am

Polly, I refer you to the game in Galway. I assume Kiss selects the team. We started with 3 wingers and 2 full-backs - 2 wingers were playing on the wing (good start Les), one winger was at full-back, one full-back was at 10, the other was at 13 and our 13 was at 12.

And you wonder why we think Les Kiss is to blame for much of our problem!
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Cornerfleg » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:40 am

.... Plus a Kabbadi expert and someone whose cousin was a prop for Ireland ...
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby Neil F » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Let's delineate for a second: Kiss is, certainly, a problem. I have no doubt about that. He might not be all of problems but that is a different matter.

Kiss is the fixed effect across two to three seasons of performances going seriously backwards. Does Kiss have a great set of players? Hell no. In a European sense, Ulster are mediocre at best. Is Kiss getting the best out of the players he has? Also hell no. Has Kiss ever got the best out of Ulster as a team? Certainly not on anything more than one-off occasions.

I have little doubt that Kiss is incompetent. Getting rid of him won't fix all of Ulster's problems. It should, however, stop at least some of the slide on the park. It might stop Ulster finishing below Edinburgh in the league if (and that's a big if) Ulster can replace Kiss with someone competent. I am not convinced I have faith in those higher up the chain of command at Ulster Rugby to appoint the kind of coach Ulster need, mind. That Mark McCall was the last Ulster head coach to make a meaningful impact in the game elsewhere says a lot - and in the case of McCall, it was a long road to where he is now.

Kiss has inherited a poor squad compared to what McLaughlin and Anscombe got; but he also inherited a better one than was mostly available to McCall and, certainly, Matt Williams. That those players are making, repeatedly, the same errors game after game is what is taking the sting out of anything Ulster might build. Some players are new but, let's be honest, those players didn't make the same mistakes they made under other coaching regimes, at Ulster or elsewhere. Three seasons ago, Ulster's first-up defence wasn't terrible. Now it is. It might well be players' attitudes but questions must be raised as to why players' attitudes are so bad.

There is little to no reward at Ulster for good performances and little punishment for poor performances. Rodney was atrocious against Munster and is rewarded with another start against Leinster. Stockdale couldn't buy a start last season, despite being the form player in the league by contrast. If what one sees on the pitch bares little resemblance to the next selection, one can easily believe that the same goes for what players do in training. Poor attitude in training is a killer, no doubt. But that comes from a coach creating a culture where that attitude is acceptable, as much as it comes from players themselves. When players, en masse, appear to have an attitude issue, it's difficult to blame anyone other than the management.

In my experience, most Ulster fans I interact with are realistic about what Ulster are capable of, with the current resources. They are realistic about what the near future might hold. And are realistic about the systems in place at the club. I haven't spoken to anyone who has told me that Ulster should be winning trophies on a European level. Making the six-team play-offs in a league where eight of the fourteen teams are very poor, on the other hand, should be taken as a given, even with the limitations of Ulster's playing talent. Most fans accept that Ulster can lose to a team like Leinster; less so that they roll over with a whimper and get duffed by 40+ points in Galway.

I'm not an insider. I know very little about the organisation at Ulster Rugby. My perception is that it's incredibly ineffective, though and I read enough on here to be quite sure that is the case. See the earlier point about the coaches Ulster have appointed and what else they've managed in the game... Logan is a disappointment; but then, so was Reid if one read this forum enough a few years back. Again, the capacity to appoint a capable replacement is as much where the question lies as the more immediate course of action. Replacing Logan with another makes sense only if that decision isn't crap.

None of this means that Kiss should be given a free ride, mind. The failings elsewhere in the organisation do not mask Kiss' own failings.
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Re: Who Really is to Blame

Postby big mervyn » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:44 am

Polly Cotton wrote: We will rant if we lose and celebrate if we win,

Can't recall too many wins being celebrated on here this year. Maybe 3 or 4? It's mostly been atrocious win or lose.
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