Contract situation

[Russ]

... Cave is exposed at 13 for Ireland because he plays with the rubbish around him

... Payne gets to play in the full side, usually with a proper 12 inside him

I won't quote rum so will spare people it but a simple check on espn stats will show I am correct

[Snipe Watson]

I'd say that's a probability if Payne stays, aye.

Maybe* I'm being a gurning fool, but in this turn of events I'd rather see us let Payne go and play our best 13 at 13 and one of our many 12s at 12.

* possibly probably.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it; Payne is Ulster's best 13.

His capacity at 13 is ignored because Ulster would have been a stronger outfit with him at 15 and Cave at 13 over the last season or so. I understand the frustration; for Ulster, it seems like an inefficient use of playing resources to have Payne at 13. There are valid arguments about where Payne should play. That he's an inferior 13 to Cave isn't one of them. That he might be a better 15 than 13 is a matter of opinion to most; that the gap between Cave and Payne at 13 is much smaller than the gap between Payne and Ludik at 15 isn't even debatable. None of them reflect, however, what Payne actually offers at 13.

Anyone advocating letting Payne leave is talking in absurdities unless it involves a first-choice IQ backrower coming the other way. In no other situation does the squad or the first XV get stronger for Payne leaving, given his likely station at 13. In reality, the problem with Payne is that UR failed to immediately replace him at 15 with someone of similar quality.

The elephant in the room is and always will be that Ulster Rugby's primary purpose is to supply players to the Ireland team, end of. Therefore Ireland's best outside centre, Jared Payne, plays outside centre for Ulster. The fact that he would be better utilised at 15 as we also have Ireland's second best outside centre is irrelevant. Ours is just to do or die.
I know it's "theirs but to do and die".

[Eggs]

Our best combination would be Payne at 15, Pietau and Gilroy on the wings, and Cave at 13. If they can get back to full fitness again, Bowe and Trimble also come into the mix and would compete for wing places. A three quarters of Payne, Pietau, Cave, Mccluskey, Trimble would be sensational.

Im really not sure that is true. Our best combination for me would be Pietau at 15, trimble and Bowe on the wings, Payne at 13 and Cave at 12. Gilroy would come in for Bowe at present, and potentially permanently if Tommy doesn't fully recover. Mccloskey on the bench for impact.

I cant believe that some on here would contemplate the idea of us allowing Irelands first choice 13 to leave Ulster...

[Nightsoil]

I can live with our players being moved around to serve the Irish team but when it leads to a weaker team than if they were directly replaced in that position, I'd rather we moved them to another province. I mean, surely if we are placing the Irish team over the Ulster team, then we should be proposing to lose one of our centres for the greater good anyway?

p.s. When I say I can live with our players being moved, I mean I will grumble incessantly every time Henderson lines up as a lock until he retires but accept that's the way of it.

[Russ]

Our best combination would be Payne at 15, Pietau and Gilroy on the wings, and Cave at 13. If they can get back to full fitness again, Bowe and Trimble also come into the mix and would compete for wing places. A three quarters of Payne, Pietau, Cave, Mccluskey, Trimble would be sensational.

Im really not sure that is true. Our best combination for me would be Pietau at 15, trimble and Bowe on the wings, Payne at 13 and Cave at 12. Gilroy would come in for Bowe at present, and potentially permanently if Tommy doesn't fully recover. Mccloskey on the bench for impact.

I cant believe that some on here would contemplate the idea of us allowing Irelands first choice 13 to leave Ulster...

If he is detrimental to the squad he's no use at Ulster

[rocky]

Our best combination would be Payne at 15, Pietau and Gilroy on the wings, and Cave at 13. If they can get back to full fitness again, Bowe and Trimble also come into the mix and would compete for wing places. A three quarters of Payne, Pietau, Cave, Mccluskey, Trimble would be sensational.

Im really not sure that is true. Our best combination for me would be Pietau at 15, trimble and Bowe on the wings, Payne at 13 and Cave at 12. Gilroy would come in for Bowe at present, and potentially permanently if Tommy doesn't fully recover. Mccloskey on the bench for impact.

I cant believe that some on here would contemplate the idea of us allowing Irelands first choice 13 to leave Ulster...

Eggs, that is fair comment but it does assume that Bowe (out for the season) and Trimble (out for a lot of last season and a lot of this one so far) can get themselves back to anything like they were two years ago. I believe that Trimble currently looks more likely so to do. However, It's good that Cave has demonstrated his ability to play well in either centre position.

[Cockatrice]

Our best combination would be Payne at 15, Pietau and Gilroy on the wings, and Cave at 13. If they can get back to full fitness again, Bowe and Trimble also come into the mix and would compete for wing places. A three quarters of Payne, Pietau, Cave, Mccluskey, Trimble would be sensational.

Im really not sure that is true. Our best combination for me would be Pietau at 15, trimble and Bowe on the wings, Payne at 13 and Cave at 12. Gilroy would come in for Bowe at present, and potentially permanently if Tommy doesn't fully recover. Mccloskey on the bench for impact.

I cant believe that some on here would contemplate the idea of us allowing Irelands first choice 13 to leave Ulster...

At 31 get rid of him.. develop McCloskey and Arnold and get Olding back in the mix. Would he make the Munster 13 shirt?

[Russ]

Our best combination would be Payne at 15, Pietau and Gilroy on the wings, and Cave at 13. If they can get back to full fitness again, Bowe and Trimble also come into the mix and would compete for wing places. A three quarters of Payne, Pietau, Cave, Mccluskey, Trimble would be sensational.

Im really not sure that is true. Our best combination for me would be Pietau at 15, trimble and Bowe on the wings, Payne at 13 and Cave at 12. Gilroy would come in for Bowe at present, and potentially permanently if Tommy doesn't fully recover. Mccloskey on the bench for impact.

I cant believe that some on here would contemplate the idea of us allowing Irelands first choice 13 to leave Ulster...

At 31 get rid of him.. develop McCloskey and Arnold and get Olding back in the mix. Would he make the Munster 13 shirt?

No

Nor Leinsters - they've got Ringrose

[Jackie Brown]

NeilF I usually enjoy your posts, but you're wrong on this.

[BaggyTrousers]

- Ian Humphreys - Adiós
- Sam Windsor - Adiós

I've just noticed this. I know neither are overly great, but without them don't you think we're going to be a tiny bit short of fly-half cover?

I'd rather play Big Licence at 10 that two windielickers like themuns.

[Snipe Watson]

Our best combination would be Payne at 15, Pietau and Gilroy on the wings, and Cave at 13. If they can get back to full fitness again, Bowe and Trimble also come into the mix and would compete for wing places. A three quarters of Payne, Pietau, Cave, Mccluskey, Trimble would be sensational.

Im really not sure that is true. Our best combination for me would be Pietau at 15, trimble and Bowe on the wings, Payne at 13 and Cave at 12. Gilroy would come in for Bowe at present, and potentially permanently if Tommy doesn't fully recover. Mccloskey on the bench for impact.

I cant believe that some on here would contemplate the idea of us allowing Irelands first choice 13 to leave Ulster...

At 31 get rid of him.. develop McCloskey and Arnold and get Olding back in the mix. Would he make the Munster 13 shirt?

Wise up Cockers.
Unless you mean in exchange for a back row player of similar quality.

[Russ]

NeilF I usually enjoy your posts, but you're wrong on this.

Hi Jackie

Like with UR we cannot speak the truth regarding Payne any more. His PR team have infiltrated

[Cockatrice]

Our best combination would be Payne at 15, Pietau and Gilroy on the wings, and Cave at 13. If they can get back to full fitness again, Bowe and Trimble also come into the mix and would compete for wing places. A three quarters of Payne, Pietau, Cave, Mccluskey, Trimble would be sensational.

Im really not sure that is true. Our best combination for me would be Pietau at 15, trimble and Bowe on the wings, Payne at 13 and Cave at 12. Gilroy would come in for Bowe at present, and potentially permanently if Tommy doesn't fully recover. Mccloskey on the bench for impact.

I cant believe that some on here would contemplate the idea of us allowing Irelands first choice 13 to leave Ulster...

At 31 get rid of him.. develop McCloskey and Arnold and get Olding back in the mix. Would he make the Munster 13 shirt?

Wise up Cockers.
Unless you mean in exchange for a back row player of similar quality.

thats is exactly what I mean snipe more so because our Aussie boss is contemplating the share of player wealth around the provinces. I think getting an Irish squad player elsewhere in any trade bargaining would make us stronger.

[BaggyTrousers]

neil… on reflection what does Payne actually offer at 13 ?

CT; in a direct call between Cave and Payne, it's fairly obvious that both have their limitations. That said, I'd say the easiest answer to that is that what he offers is revealed by his absence. Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of Earls' selection at 13 against Argentina, what Payne offers shone brightly in his absence. Cave's international performances, by contrast, are a mixed bag as I've discussed elsewhere on this forum. How noticeable these margins are at province / club level is perhaps a more relevant debate but I don't think it implies that Cave is a better 13 at that level because the limitations in his game don't show up as much as they do on the international stage.

NeilF I usually enjoy your posts, but you're wrong on this.

Neil that bit in red is just one confirmation of Jackie's brief but erudite contribution.

I rarely jump on any of your posts for whether or not I agree with them they are usually well considered and not just the first crap that comes into most poster's heads.

Sorry but that one just plucks a theory from the air and builds on it. There were so many reasons for the game against the Argies going arseshaped, it is an outrage to imply that the absence of Payne would have been in the top 5 reasons. Indeed though he's not my idea of a centre, I don't think that Earls can be pointed at as a contributory factor in any significant way to the humiliation, though admittedly I have expunged the match from my memory to a large degree.

I am convinced that Cocker's question is both unanswered and relevant. What seems certain is that his presence ensures a degree of solidity that escapes most centres - though not Cave in my opinion - in FibberJose's contrived midfield, however, rather meanly I suppose, I believe that Payne plays more or less silent partner to Henshaw. However were you to ask, "well, what does he do at 13?" I'd struggle to answer in any illuminating way.

I would love someone to grasp the kernel of Payne's contribution at centre and explain what he does, to my eye it is a limited but energetic all round efficiency, however, based on results with those two, Payne & Henshaw, playing together it's almost impossible to make any argument to suggest it doesn't work.

If it works as a positive for Ireland, I cannot make that same argument with Ulster, I have no doubt in my mind that the Ulster backline was better served with Payne at 15, Cave at 13. I refuse to believe that Cave at 12 with Payne offers anything like the same benefits and I do consider that McCloskey's potential is there for all to see and 2 into 3 doesn't work.

I am also certain that Payne's talent as a 15 has been hugely missed by Ulster over the past 15-18 months, and that Neil takes me back to that bit in red. I would say without fear of contradiction that those 18 months show very clearly that Payne's ability and sad absence at 15 for Ulster has been illuminated more clearly than anything else in this debate.

So I arrive back at the spot of knowing Payne at 15 is best for Ulster, just as Cave at 13 is demonstrably better for Ulster.

There you go, a load of words that take us nowhere other than knowing there will be an IRFU demand for Payne at 13. Interesting to see Henshaw at 15 for Connacht last night just the same.

[Cockatrice]

in simple terms Payne cannot be considered for any other position other than 13 whilst an array of players.. Cave, Olding, Arnold, McCloskey and Marshall all must be considered only as back up or options for 12.

Even with Luduk injured I reckon we'd have to consider other break glass options first and also have gone out and apparently spent £500K per year on a new full back having to get rid of Ludik in the process just so Payne can hold the 13 shirt.

I think it has unbalanced the whole team, cost us a small fortune and I have yet to see the AB's signings that will cost us another small fortune which for the record we don't have.