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MCB v Regent scores

ny and all to do with skules

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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby cables » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:48 am

Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
Nothing wrong with the seeding system
It wasn't the seeding that was wrong


Same question:
Can you provide information about the 'seeding system' Cap'n?
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby pwrmoore » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:55 am

I didn't see anything published this year cables if that is what you're referring to. For the last couple of years the seeding system involved all four of the previous year's semi-finalists getting a bye to the fourth round. This year my old school who were beaten semi-finalists last year came into the competition at the third round so I assumed that something had changed. However, I never was able to find out exactly how the rules had changed to make this happen...

To be honest I assumed that Portora weren't anticipated to get so far in the competition when those rules were written and that the bye into the fourth rouind was never intended for shools like that and that the Belfast schools had therefore influenced a reworking of the rules to correct this anomaly.
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby cables » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:05 am

Entry point into the Cup competition cannot be the 'seeding system' referred to by Ball Boy.

Ball Boy's post seems to imply a 'seeding system' to remove real contenders prior to the final(s) and I would like to hear more about it.
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby Cap'n Grumpy » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:05 am

simple and honest answer "NO"

it is something like this, but exact details may not be correct.

It is based on results of matches played in first half (ish) of season between schools in "friendlies", and possibly the previous year's performance. Those that do worst go into the draw at the first round, those that do better in succeeding rounds. This means that those who get knocked out in the first round go into the plate, or bowl or saucer or some competition. Likewise those who get knocked out in second round go into another competition, and so on.

It avoids the possibility in an open draw of (for example) Methody v Inst in R1, with the loser going on to dominate the Plate competition. It means that there are a number of meaningful competitions going on, with (hopefully) reasonably matched teams competing in each.

Methody came in at the last possible round for top seeds in this year's Cup competition, Regent came in a round (or two) earlier (I can't remember which) and consequently had to play an extra match (or two).

It was after this seeding that a open draw started to have an effect. Inst v Campbell - Inst out. Campbell v Methody - Campbell out (after a replay), Methody v Ballymena - Ballymena out. Four of the fancied teams drawn against each other in successive rounds AFTER the seeding influence was over, while Regent had what THEY WOULD ACCEPT, was the draw they would have preferred. The only way to avoid that would have been to have more seeding, (some might call it rigging the draw) instead of an open draw.

As stated, I probably haven't got the detail right, cables, but hopefully you get the gist. I'm sure there is someone out there who will correct me (DHK, when he gets over the disappointment???)
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby cables » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:08 am

Our posts were at the same time so I repeat:

Entry point into the Cup competition cannot be the 'seeding system' referred to by Ball Boy.

Ball Boy's post seems to imply a 'seeding system' to remove real contenders prior to the final(s) and I would like to hear more about it.
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby Cap'n Grumpy » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:10 am

cables wrote:Entry point into the Cup competition cannot be the 'seeding system' referred to by Ball Boy.

Ball Boy's post seems to imply a 'seeding system' to remove real contenders prior to the final(s) and I would like to hear more about it.


Seeding system is simply to determine entry point. I believe that within each round, there was an open draw, so teams that enter at a particulr round CAN be drawn against one another. They don't get any other advantage other than later entry point.
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby Cap'n Grumpy » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:12 am

cables wrote:Our posts were at the same time so I repeat:

Entry point into the Cup competition cannot be the 'seeding system' referred to by Ball Boy.

Ball Boy's post seems to imply a 'seeding system' to remove real contenders prior to the final(s) and I would like to hear more about it.

Perhaps only Ball Boy CAN explain it. Perhaps UB have someone placed on a grassy knoll to pick off "real contenders" :roll:
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby cables » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:14 am

Perhaps, still waiting for enlightenment on the 'seeding system' which produced this so called mismatch in the final however.
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby Cap'n Grumpy » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:25 am

cables wrote:Perhaps, still waiting for enlightenment on the 'seeding system' which produced this so called mismatch in the final however.

Don't think you'll get one.

Bottom line is that the best team won - congratulations to Methody!

The other team in the final did not play (or were not allowed to play) to their potential, but they were not disgraced. Methody had the upper hand in all areas of the park, but it should be noted that THEY had to do some defending at times, even to the end of the match. Regent deserve credit for that - their heads did not go down, they were simply beaten by a better team. I think I'm right in stating that they have not conceded more than one try in any of the earlier rounds, and their defence has been superb. Perhaps today (sorry, yesterday, now) was just one match too far for them.

As in any knock-out competition, it can be debated whether the second best team were the runners-up, but the record books will show that the runners up were Regent - congratulations to them too!
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby cables » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:38 am

Agree fully with your 'bottom line' and also the bottom line of your post Cap'n. I still await enlightenment from Ball Boy however.
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby ColinS » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:53 am

Wait til next year.. Belfast Boys' Model - Schools' Cup Winners for the 2nd time! :shock:

As Mike of Hollywood would say, I have a dream, etc.
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby DHK » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:09 am

Fair play to MCB, totally outclassed us. People can talk about the seeding system or a favourable draw but don't take anything way from regent in getting to the final, they deserved to be there based on the fact that they beat who was put in front of them on 4 previous occasions.
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby Setanta » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:07 am

AND Regent are a young team - they'll be there or thereabouts next year too! Methody were brilliant and worthy winners. (but then as ex-MCB I'm bound to say that!)
From the rolling glens of Antrim through the hills of Donegal we will stand and shout for Ulster as we win both scrum and maul from the lovely lakes of Fermanagh tae the shores of ould Lough Gall we will scream and shout for Ulster as we beat them one and all!
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby fox » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:49 am

The seeding system is something that we copied from leinstr to prevent mismatches but in typical Ulster Branch fashion we did it half cocked. In Leinster they have a structured draw so seeds 1 and 2 should not meet till final 1v3, 2v4 in semis etc (think Wimbledon). Of course upsets happen but thats the draw. Here we put 8 seeds in at round 4 (last 16) so it is statistically v likely that seeds will meet one another and so it has happened over past 3 years (Instv ccb; inst v B'mena; Mcb v B'mena) In one year a high seeded team (RSA?) played a seed in rd4 lost and picked up another seed in the subsidiary - lost. Think about that - a successful season finished in 7 days in a system that involves seeds. Madness.

You either do this properly or you don't do it at all. By the time you get to seeds 6-8 there is big debate. Seed 4 teams (everyone knows each year who the best 4 teams are) and separate them. End of.

As a Collegian with the exception of Leckey and Macklin those boys did not look so sharp in the semi. The B'mena Mcb semi was one of the best games of schoolboy rugby i've seen. From what i understand Mcb are the only team to beat B'mena (twice with 1 draw) and they would have been seed 1 v seed 2.

Ps Leinster also have a league to ensure more competitive fixtures for all levels of schools' ability. Why not here?
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Re: MCB v Regent scores

Postby Cap'n Grumpy » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:35 am

fox wrote: In one year a high seeded team (RSA?) played a seed in rd4 lost and picked up another seed in the subsidiary - lost. Think about that - a successful season finished in 7 days in a system that involves seeds. Madness.

It could be argued that if they lost twice in 7 days (albeit to seeds), they weren't good enough anyway. Should they have expected a clear run in the Subsidiary?

If we seed all the way to the final, why not just play the top four off against one another from the semis anyway, and put the next tier into another competition and so on?

Is the FA Cup competition devalued this year because Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal aren't in the semis? many would argue that it has been enhanced.

The best team(s) GENERALLY get there or therabouts, but what makes the competition so good is that the so called "lesser" teams can get their chance of an upset and glory.
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